Killington/Pico Possible Upgrades

TomWhite

In addition to what we've discussed, Killington is considering upgrading/replacing SuperStar, Ramshead and Outpost. I didn't know about Pico's A and B slopes being widened. See below:

5. NEW BUSINESS

a. Discussions with Jeff Temple, Killington Resort, regarding upcoming projects – Jeff Temple started his presentation by reviewing the status of permitted 2018 projects – i) The South Ridge Ski Lift Replacement, Skyeburst Ski Tunnel, Storage Shed addition to the Alpine Training Center, Snowdon Quad Ski Lift Replacement, ski trail installation in the Snowdon area, Ramshead area Swirl Trail Poma Lift Relocation and addition of addition Summer amenities, such as the Wrecktangle were completed. ii) Two of the three tunnels in the Upper Bunny/Upper Chute/Lower Snowdon areas have been completed. The third tunnel is set to be completed this summer. iii) The Highline Ski Trail Race Venue judge’s structure has been approved and is awaiting funding. iv) The Resort is continuing to work on a water source for Pico and hopes to

TOWN OF KILLINGTON PLANNING COMMISSION Meeting of February 13, 2019 Page 2

have approvals in place this summer so that construction can begin. v) There are no new mountain bike trails planned but the maintenance crew will be re-working the configuration of some of the older trails to ensure proper erosion controls and trail stability. vi) A pond walk/run course will be completed this spring along with a Mountain Gym on the end of the Grand Hotel to add to the summer amenities. The following projects are being readied for review and permit application: i) North Ridge Lift Replacement; ii) Re-configuration of Squeeze Play Trail; iii) K1 Lodge Replacement; iv) 3-4 additional Mountain Biking trails are being designed; and v) Pico Trail Enhancements including the continued widening of B-slope and A-slope as well as looking to try and upgrade the pumping station. Jeff concluded by giving a brief review of some projects that are being reviewed but are not being submitted for permitting, such as partial to full replacement of the Superstar Express Quad, full replacement of the Pico Outpost Double and partial to full replacement of the Ramshead Express Quad with covered carriers and storage facility.

TomWhite

Liftblog.com discussion:

A.G. May 10, 2019 / 9:13 am
I’ll be sad to see Outpost go, its a classic. Its got to be tough to keep it running though as one of the last fully original C & S lifts out there. Great to see Powdr reinvesting at Pico, how much longer till the two Yan detachables get some upgrades too?
• COLLIN PARSONS May 10, 2019 / 12:43 pm
I think Superstar becomes a 6 pack (non-bubble), Ramshead becomes a bubble 6 or 8 extended back to the true summit, and Outpost becomes a triple in that order.
As for the old lifts, Superstar gets parted out to keep Snowshed and the Pico Yan detachables going, Ramshead moves to replace the Snowshed Double, and Outpost gets completely scrapped.
As for the Yan detachables at Pico, I think those will be replaced as part of the eventual interconnect. It’s possible the Ramshead Express could move to replace one of them instead of the Snowshed Double. Hopefully Summit where the design speed of 1100 feet per minute could be taken advantage of.
o TJSKILOAF17 May 10, 2019 / 1:28 pm
Why would Superstar ever become a 6? Its hardly ever crowded. I’d say the most likely option is a quad with ski racks on the backs of the chairs for spring.
 COLLIN PARSONS May 10, 2019 / 1:33 pm
Superstar has a higher capacity than most high speed quads built today. That’s why it needs to become a 6.
o DONALD REIF #SAVEDAREDEVIL (@DONALDMREIF) May 10, 2019 / 3:36 pm
No expert, but an alternate for Ramshead would be to reuse it to replace Canyon, with a downhill extension to the K1 Lodge. It’s about the same horizontal distance as Ramshead’s existing alignment. And would provide an alternative route to that pod if K1 goes down (more direct than via Snowdon Six).
 COLLIN PARSONS May 10, 2019 / 5:47 pm
No way that would happen as the main reason the Canyon Quad exists is for runout avoidance. Would be useful for early season, but no way it happens.
o A. G. May 11, 2019 / 8:02 am
Superstar really has that much capacity? When they build the glacier up top its way too congested now. Seems a 6 would be overkill.
 COLLIN PARSONS May 11, 2019 / 8:06 am
The capacity is 3000 like most 6 packs built today. Quads are almost never over 2400 anymore.

 DONALD REIF #SAVEDAREDEVIL (@DONALDMREIF) May 11, 2019 / 1:09 pm
What determines the needed capacity is always the demand in any area. With six-pack chairs, Superstar would have the same capacity but with bigger chair gaps, allowing for 1,000 fpm operation.

newpylong

Reading these is like playing Ski Resort Tycoon. Good grief.

NewEnglandSkier13

They should start a discussion board.

NELSAP

I was thinking that they should string together all of these removed lifts, merge them into one, and put the drive/base at the bottom of Sunrise to reopen, and the terminal at the summit of Pico. 5.35 miles long, 28 min long ride. Who's up for that? :D

newpylong

Only if it has lattice towers.

djaskipa68

The big question is about the Outpost chair, are they going to replace it with another double or upgrade it to a triple or quad? Any upgrade then brings the question about the terrain, will more be added? Will more trails receive covered with snowmaking?

Does this lift pod run midweek now? I haven't skied there since 2008 and that lift was never open midweek except during holidays.

Back in the mid 80s there were talks about trails being cut off that side of the mountain to create a new lift and trail pod leading down closer to Rutland. Whether they meant the new trails created by Golden Express installed shortly later or something completely different. Anyone remember hearing anything about any such idea back then or even now?

TomWhite

Remember all this is based on Killington beginning to think about upgrades/replacements from town planning commission minutes. But it's fun to speculate.

newpylong

No new snowmaking/trails on Outpost. Unknown what chair type, still in concept phase.

IBRAKEFORTBARS

newpylong;c-35695 wroteNo new snowmaking/trails on Outpost. Unknown what chair type, still in concept phase.

If it’s in the concept phase does that mean the lift has a stay on life for one more season? If so a trip to Pico is in order for me next season. Haven’t ridden a C&S lift since the original Killington gondola back in the 80s. No clue if any of the chairs at Killington in 86 and 87 or Mt. Snow in 92 were C&S.

IBRAKE

newpylong

At least one more season...

TomWhite

New water source at Pico approved, snowmaking upgrades underway

Fri, 09/20/2019 - 12:08pm --
Related Company:
Killington Pico Ski Resort Partners, LLC
Largest Investment in Pico Mountain Over Last 20 Years; Installation to Begin Immediately
Vermont Business Magazine Vermont’s Pico Mountain (link is external) announced today the Land Use Permit has been approved as part of major upgrades to its snowmaking system. Starting in the 2019-20 season guests will experience a better, more consistent and more reliable snow surface.
District Environmental Commission: "This permit specifically authorizes the provision of supplemental water to the Pico snowmaking system from the Killington snowmaking system via an above ground 8,000 foot, 8 inch pipeline, existing snowmaking pipeline upgrades/replacement at Pico, and the re-location of Killington's existing Ottauquechee River Intake."
Pico, part of the POWDR adventure lifestyle company, will increase the frequency at which it is able to make snow by tapping a new source of water.
“Thanks to the momentous effort put forth by our environmental consultant, VHB, and mountain operations team over the last three years, we will be able to provide a better guest experience at Pico,” says Jeff Temple, director of mountain operations. “Rather than relying exclusively on the streams as we do now, we will build a 16,850 foot pipeline to source water from Killington.”
Additional improvements to Pico’s snowmaking system, which are already in progress, include the installation of more than 4,000 feet of new snowmaking pipe and the replacement of 5,460 feet of existing snowmaking pipe. This spring, the Pico primary pump House will undergo a complete overhaul with the addition of three new pumps and a new control system, completing this two-phase snowmaking improvement project. Pico’s snowmaking upgrades will enable the resort to recover from inclement weather at a much faster rate.
“Pico’s known for big mountain skiing and riding amidst its small mountain charm,” says Rich McCoy, director of operations at Pico Mountain. “These snowmaking upgrades raise the bar. This season, guests can expect trail count to increase faster and recovery time after bad weather to shorten.”
Pico’s 2019-20 My Pico Season Passes (link is external) are on sale now with a new Kids Ski Free promotion, offering a free season pass to kids 12 and under with the purchase of an adult pass. Complete details on the offer and a full list of 2019-20 Pico Mountain season passes, seasonal programs, seasonal lockers and rentals can be found at picomountain.com (link is external).
https://vermontbiz.com/news/2019/september/20/new-water-source-pico-approved-snowmaking-upgrades-underway
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If I recall that when this summer’s improvements were announced in the spring, “pended Act250 approval” was mentioned for at least a pond. Well approval has been given but there’s no mention of a pond but there is of moving the Ottauquechee intake. The current one is near the Episcopal church across from the gondi base on Rt. 4/100. That definitely wasn’t referenced in the spring. I didn’t know they still used it.

newpylong

No pond was part of the 250 application, but relocating the Gondola intake was. The current intake is at the end of the north parking lot on the east side of Route 4. The church is on the other side of the river, about a 1/4 mile away. They are moving it closer to the pump house which is actually that bunker below the skybridge over the road.

TomWhite

I didn't find the post below when I posted this morning. My memory of the pond is the opposite, "no longer rely on the streams to refill snowmaking ponds". They already have them, and they may use them less.
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Pico Snowmaking Expansion

TomWhite
March 10 in NELSAP Forum Posts: 1,131
Posted on their season pass page:

With $2.1 million in capital investment for snowmaking improvements announced for winter 2019/20, a My Pico Pass will provide more value than ever. Guests can look forward to a more consistent and more reliable snow surface. Pending permit approval, the $2.1 million investment will be the largest since Killington took ownership of Pico more than 20 years ago.
The highlight of the improvements is tapping into a new water source by building a 16,850 foot pipeline allowing water to be pumped from Killington, meaning we'll no longer need to rely on the streams to refill snowmaking ponds. This will give us the ability to make more snow, for longer periods of time.
Additional improvements will include the installation of more than 4,000 feet of new snowmaking pipe, the replacement of 5,418 feet of existing snowmaking pipe, and an additional water pump. Combined, these upgrades are expected to double snowmaking capacity and allow for more trails to open sooner early season and allow for faster recovery from inclement weather.

TW: From what they say, they couldn’t find enough water near the Pico. But still a 3 mi. pipe to get the water is a big project. Does this make an interconnect more likely?

djaskipa68

I'm kinda confused, didn't they have access to Woodward Reservoir? Why would they need a 2nd withdrawal site? My understanding back when Woodward withdrawals started, they would limit the use of the Gondola intake. Woodward Reservoir allowed them unlimited access except in a drought year where the levels would substantially lower.

newpylong

Why put all your eggs in one basket? They actually have 4 withdrawal sites. Roaring Brook (Snowshed Pond), Gondola, Falls Brook (Bear Pond) and Woodward (feeds both ponds). The other 3 have declined over the years since Woodward went in but they still pump a significant amount of water. Sometimes different water sources have a higher flow rate and they must maintain adequate levels at each site.