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MAHRE OR BODE WHO BETTER

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Author	Post
c300 Profile \| Galleries Rank: Member Since: Jan 26, 2004 Posts: 67 Location:suffield ct	Posted: Mar 18, 2004 - 9:11 PM GMT i vote for mahre had to go day in and day out vs stenmark.

the_hop Profile \| Galleries Rank: Member Since: Sep 06, 2001 Posts: 1602 Location:Groton, Ma	Posted: Mar 18, 2004 - 9:12 PM GMT And give me Jean Claude!!!! __________ Getting old is hell, but it is better than not getting old The older I get, the better I was!

Bill29 Profile \| Galleries Rank: Member Since: Dec 19, 2002 Posts: 1981 Location:	Posted: Mar 18, 2004 - 9:22 PM GMT I suppose the Mahre you're talking about is Phil, not Steve. Mahre was very good. Bode Miller is very good now, but it's early in his career to be comparing him with Phil Mahre. Also, as the years go by, race courses change, equipment changes and training methods change. It's tough to compare skiers in different eras, though Mahre didn't stop racing all that long ago. Interesting topic.

dirk109 Profile \| Galleries Rank: Member Since: Nov 21, 2001 Posts: 1050 Location:Stratton, VT	Posted: Mar 19, 2004 - 1:12 AM GMT You can't really compare the 2. Bode has shaped skis. Big help, ask any racer.

Tree_Skier Profile \| Galleries Rank: Member Since: Feb 21, 2002 Posts: 485 Location:	Posted: Mar 19, 2004 - 2:57 PM GMT Point for Bode is that he also runs downhill. With the equipment changes it's very hard to compare different eras. From the pre world cup era of leather lace boots and wood skis to the killy era of buckle boots and beginning of composite skis to the stenmark era with traditional skiis and todays era of shaped skiis. todays racers use much more brute strength then in any other era and champions of the past would be hard pressed to compete today. That being said todays skiers would be hard pressed to be competative with yesterdays champions on the equipment of the era. My ranking if they were asked to compete with equipment of all eras would be: Killy Stenmark Gustoff Thorni (sp?) Miller Mahre

songfta Profile \| Galleries Rank: Member Since: Jan 14, 2004 Posts: 554 Location:Washington, DC	Posted: Mar 19, 2004 - 3:38 PM GMT Edited: Mar 19, 2004 - 3:39 PM GMT Phil Mahre also ran downhill - he was once ranked in the top 15 on the FIS list (1982 season) - which is the only reason that he was able to win his three World Cup overall titles. Both Mahre brothers avoided the (then-new) super-G, citing it as "a waste of time" and a "compromise race that doesn't really prove anything." Of course, if you look at the way the World Cap was organized at the time, there were only 2 super-G races during the season, their points counting toward the overall but not toward any particular discipline title (there is a threshold for minimum number of races to warrant a season title - thus, no combined Cup title this year, due to only 2 combined events staged during the season). Also, until the late-80s the World Cup only awarded points to the top 15 finishers in a race, with the winner getting 25 points (as opposed to 100 for a win in the modern Cup). Thus, missing the super-G didn't really phase the Mahres, who were capable of winning any GS or SL, and placing high in DH and combined. This is what kept them ahead of racers like Stenmark (who seldom raced downhills, and rarely placed in the top 30 when he did) and Girardelli (who was more of a downhiller at the time, still honing his paradigm-setting SL technique). But if you look at things in context, I'd give the edge to Phil Mahre right now. There are many respects in which Miller and Mahre are similar: wild, unique technique that forced changes in ski design (Miller was the first to win FIS races on shaped skis (K2 Fours, to be specific), while Mahre's GS and SL technique resulted in K2 creating some extreme ski designs to handle the extreme forces generated by the "White Pass" turn); introverted personalities; rural upbringings; multi-sport interests. But there's one thing that gives Mahre the edge over Miller: consistency. Phil didn't win too many Cup races in his day, but he was consistently in the top-5 in technical events. His lines in the courses were often more conservative than the more hotshot racers (e.g. Roc Petrovic, who revolutionized slalom racing in the late-1980s by taking extremely direct lines and cross-blocking the gates), and due to this he seldom won individual discipline titles. But he stayed in the game enough to win the overall. Bode is certainly fast - probably the fastest SL and GS skier around these days. But he always takes risks and skis on the edge, which hurts his consistency. He's always gunning for the win, thinking more in the short-term than the long-term - and when more weight is on his shoulders, he tends to slip. Once he learns that he can win (or place in the top-5) consistently without doing everything at full-tilt, he will be a shoo-in for the World Cup overall title. (Granted, you could also argue that Bode's switch of equipment (from Fischer to Rossignol) after his incredible Olympic year was questionable, and that the competition has been catching up. You could also argue that Mahre was a bit more boring, as he wasn't always taking the same amount of risks as many of his competitors. But that's adding too much fuel to the fire.) __________ Track my adventures at randomduck.com

songfta Profile \| Galleries Rank: Member Since: Jan 14, 2004 Posts: 554 Location:Washington, DC	Posted: Mar 19, 2004 - 3:48 PM GMT My top of all time: 1. Marc Girardelli (could win in any discipline and had versatile technique) 2. Pirmin Zurbriggen (not the best in SL, but a threat in everything else) 3. Ingemar Stenmark (probably the best technical skier of all time) 4. Annemarie Moser-Proell (winningest person in World Cup history, she destroyed the womens' field in the late-1970s in all disciplines) 5. Jean-Claude Killy (the original World Cup champion, though the field wasn't as tight) 6. Phil Mahre 7. Hermann Maier 8. Alberto Tomba (technician, had an incredible feel for the snow and would've been a super-G and DH threat had he chosen to race said disciplines, IMHO) 9. Gustavo Thoeni (consistent, brash and willing to put everything on the line - and Tomba's coach) 10. Bode Miller __________ Track my adventures at randomduck.com

Skileader Profile \| Galleries Rank: Member Since: Jan 15, 2002 Posts: 903 Location:Long Island N.Y.	Posted: Mar 20, 2004 - 8:16 AM GMT What about Toni Sailor? __________ Bob P.

HClone Profile \| Galleries Rank: Member Since: Feb 19, 2003 Posts: 357 Location:Northern NJ	Posted: Mar 20, 2004 - 2:32 PM GMT It is really hard to compare skiers from different eras. Maybe the thing to do is look at the skiers who completely dominated their era. I think that these dominate skiers are. Toni Sailer Jean Claude Killy Marie Guashell Ingemar Stenmark Annemarie Moser-Proell Phil Mahre did not dominate his era. Bode Miller and Hermann Maier both have the possibility to dominate. Sorry about the spelling. Bode Miller is the only name that I really know how to spell.

dirk109 Profile \| Galleries Rank: Member Since: Nov 21, 2001 Posts: 1050 Location:Stratton, VT	Posted: Mar 20, 2004 - 7:19 PM GMT I think Alberto Tomba was the best. He was just amazing on the snow and off. I also think that the whole shaped ski + the proper way to ski today is beacuse of him.

songfta Profile \| Galleries Rank: Member Since: Jan 14, 2004 Posts: 554 Location:Washington, DC	Posted: Mar 22, 2004 - 7:22 PM GMT Actually, you can trace more of the shaped ski revolution and technique to Girardelli than to Tomba. For instance, the wide stance that is now the norm was more evident in the way Girardelli skied (he purposely kept his technique fairly uniform, thus allowing him multi-discipline versatility), whereas Tomba's stance was narrower, which worked well for him but wasn't as versatile. Part of the beauty of the shaped ski revolution is that it has made ski technique more versatile: the modern SL turn is quite similar to the modern GS turn, and DH and SG have become more turn-laden (save for some of the classic courses) due to shaped skis, allowing GS specialists to be competitive (e.g. Bode's excellent results in DH and SG over the past two seasons; the same with Janica Kostelic). If you want to know which racers were the pioneers of shaped skis, you can point to three or four: 1. Bode Miller (won U.S. Nationals in GS on K2 Fours back in the early 1990s, when most racers scoffed at any experts using "cheater skis"; made many coaches and A-team racers take note) 2. Deborah Compagnoni (thoroughly dominated womens' GS in the mid and late 1990s after she switched to a shaped Dynastar GS ski - one season she won all but two GS races, usually by huge margins, and credited the "shorter, more curved skis" with a lot of her success) 3. Hermann Maier (the first male racer to dominate with the shaped GS ski, and the first racer to take advantage of the new technique in DH and SG; has been the driving force for Atomic's leading-edge shape designs) 4. Marc Girardelli (helped alter sidecuts in SL and GS skis in the 1980s, creating skis that carved shorter arcs [the Atomic HV3, the first "j-turn" SL ski]; also introduced the wide-stance GS and SL technique that now dominates, even though he was still on old-school equipment) 5. Bojan Krizaj (former SL racer for Yugoslavia in the early 1980s, retired and became head ski engineeer at Elan in Slovenia - he developed the first "parabolic" ski and had junior racers from the local area try them, where they won races handily in the early-1990s [one of whom was Janica Kostelic]) You could argue that Tomba had a little bit to do with the ascendance of the shaped skis, as he did race on mild shapes in GS toward the end of his career. But his technique never adapted to the new skis - not that it mattered much, due to his strenght, size, and feel for the snow. --------- Some asked why I didn't mention Toni Sailer. That was a mis-step - he'd be number 3 or 4 on my list of all-time greats. His dominance over the world field was great in his day, though the busy schedule of the World Cup was not in place at the time. __________ Track my adventures at randomduck.com

Bill29 Profile \| Galleries Rank: Member Since: Dec 19, 2002 Posts: 1981 Location:	Posted: Mar 23, 2004 - 4:00 PM GMT Edited: Mar 26, 2004 - 7:05 PM GMT Karl Schranz, an all-round skier, should be on anyone's top-10 list. Franz Klammer is one of the best downhillers of all time. I think they would do well today. If they were skiing competitively today they would be on today's equipment, have the advantage of today's ideas in nutrition and would have been following today's training methods. Today's top skiers probably would have done well years ago for the same reasons. Great skiers would do well in any era, IMO.

songfta Profile \| Galleries Rank: Member Since: Jan 14, 2004 Posts: 554 Location:Washington, DC	Posted: Mar 26, 2004 - 3:27 PM GMT I'll give you Schranz - a great Cup skier in its early days. As for Klammer, he was a great downhiller in his day. But so were Bernhard Russi and Peter Müller, and all three were one-trick pony racers who were awesome in DH but questionable, at best, in GS and SL. And if you're looking for the best overall racer, being dominant in one discipline doesn't quite cut it, in my book. Your mileage may vary. And though I've slighted the women in some respects, other than Moser-Proell, here are some other truly dominant female racers (some of whom are borderline top-10): - Vreni Schneider (dominant technician who could also let 'em run, and won overall World Cups as a result) - Tamara McKinney (same deal as Schneider, but from the US; had an incredibly long and prosperous career) - Maria Walliser (supreme Swiss speed skier who could also dominate in GS and get on the podium in SL) - Erika Hess (another Swiss technician who, like Stenmark in his prime, was so dominant in SL and GS that she was able to walk away with multiple overall World Cups without racing much DH) - Janica Kostelic (best technician on the womens' tour today, excellent at speed, could probably beat 2/3 of the mens' field; the new poster child for strong, technical skiing on the womens' World Cup) - Hanni Wenzel (great at everything, the last of the great "bamboo era" skiers) - Pernilla Wiberg (injury prone but able to win in every discipline, master technician, consistent) - Nancy Greene (the first woman to win the overall World Cup) __________ Track my adventures at randomduck.com

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