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Skiing Free / Service theft

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Jimme Profile \| Galleries Rank: Member Since: Jan 25, 2002 Posts: 1208 Location:6 miles West of Jiminy Peak, MA	Posted: Jun 11, 2012 - 3:45 PM GMT My first season working at a mountain left me wondering just how prevalent "ticket theft" is in the industry. We did spot checks at various times during the day, and typically one or two "offenders" were found during each check. Next season management expects to use hand-held scanners. So now there is an additional investment added to ticket validation. I figure if it were not an issue, management would not invest so much effort, and money. So, how bad is ticket theft? __________ The Artful Dodger

rocket21 Profile \| Galleries Rank: Member Since: Sep 13, 2001 Posts: 8403 Location:USA	Posted: Jun 11, 2012 - 4:15 PM GMT Edited: Jun 11, 2012 - 4:15 PM GMT Quote: So, how bad is ticket theft? It can be pretty bad in many forms: - Skiing without a ticket/pass - Skiing with an expired ticket/pass - Skiing with a fake ticket/pass - Making fake vouchers - Employees giving out freebies - Scalping in the parking lot Areas that have an isolated main mountain (ie accessed by a bridge or a lower mountain lift) have an advantage, as they can scan all incoming traffic at one place, rather than at each lift. __________ NewEnglandSkiHistory.com

tedede Profile \| Galleries Rank: Member Since: Nov 15, 2004 Posts: 806 Location:Amherst, NH	Posted: Jun 11, 2012 - 4:22 PM GMT Not sure how big of an issue theft is, but my dad told me a funny story. He helped cut a couple of the trails at Blue Knob and surveyed one of the lifts, so he knew some of the staff there pretty well. Blue Knob is an upside down mountain, with the lodge/parking at the top, so some folks had a tendency head for the trails before the ticket booth. To address this, they set up a bit of a ruse. In a loud voice the ticket checker said "What do you mean you don't have a ticket?" The guy without the ticket (who is in on the gig) began giving the checker some guff. So the checker reaches into the lift shack, pulls out a broad axe and proceeds to cut off the tips of the guy's skis. Apparently about a half dozen folks skulked out of the lift line.

newman Profile \| Galleries Rank: Member Since: Aug 21, 2008 Posts: 2124 Location:The mighty SKI WARD Shrewsbury MA	Posted: Jun 11, 2012 - 4:33 PM GMT Edited: Jun 11, 2012 - 4:34 PM GMT Areas that have an isolated main mountain (ie accessed by a bridge or a lower mountain lift) have an advantage, as they can scan all incoming traffic at one place, rather than at each lift.[/quote] Ive seen this at Blue Mt PA. Guards chasing you down with scanners. Its not as easy to ski without a pass on your coat as some may think. You can do it, but sooner or later someone checks. As far as staying later than the time ending on the pass for the day, I say your gain. They already got money for the day. As for workers giving passes to friends, thats all changed. You dont just take that days pass off a roll anymore. Most are computerized. Even the areas that still use some form of colors for a session need to get the stamp of the day. Tix in the parking lot are like tix at a football game. Someone had to pay for them already. If a rental shop guy sells his comp for beer money, he could get in trouble. Just because they look at it like he violated the trust. Not so much for any money issues. The funny thing about this- Anything someone tries, someone else most likely got caught doing.

midatlanticlost Profile \| Galleries Rank: Member Since: Jul 20, 2007 Posts: 423 Location:WV	Posted: Jun 11, 2012 - 4:59 PM GMT Quote: Not sure how big of an issue theft is, but my dad told me a funny story. He helped cut a couple of the trails at Blue Knob and surveyed one of the lifts, so he knew some of the staff there pretty well. Blue Knob is an upside down mountain, with the lodge/parking at the top, so some folks had a tendency head for the trails before the ticket booth. To address this, they set up a bit of a ruse. In a loud voice the ticket checker said "What do you mean you don't have a ticket?" The guy without the ticket (who is in on the gig) began giving the checker some guff. So the checker reaches into the lift shack, pulls out a broad axe and proceeds to cut off the tips of the guy's skis. Apparently about a half dozen folks skulked out of the lift line. Gulp. I don't think they do that any more, as I have done that once or twice when staying at a cabin at BK. Not only is the lodge at the top, but some of the rental places are part way down the mountian. So, yes, we would ski down to the closest lift, and hop on for a ride to the top and get a ticket. Some places I ski at, give a lift ticket with an attached "receipt" in case the ticket is lost/stolen. I am assuming that if you use the receipt to replace the ticket, the original is flagged in the scanning system, making them a requirement to control the use of duplicate tickets.

tedede Profile \| Galleries Rank: Member Since: Nov 15, 2004 Posts: 806 Location:Amherst, NH	Posted: Jun 11, 2012 - 5:39 PM GMT Quote: Gulp. I don't think they do that any more, as I have done that once or twice when staying at a cabin at BK. Not only is the lodge at the top, but some of the rental places are part way down the mountian. So, yes, we would ski down to the closest lift, and hop on for a ride to the top and get a ticket. I probably should have said this was in the late 50's/early 60's, back in the wooden ski days.

joshua segal Profile \| Galleries Rank: Member Since: Jul 12, 2004 Posts: 5941 Location:NH	Posted: Jun 11, 2012 - 7:06 PM GMT I don't know if tedede's story is real or apocryphal, but I heard that one 40 years ago - as well as the Lowell Thomas "bathroom break" story. rocket21's list is pretty good, which I reproduce below with comments: - Skiing without a ticket/pass: This happens, but more often than not these people have a ticket which they failed to attach. Worse, I'd say an average of once a day I will find the current day's pass on the snow that fell off after not being properly attached to the wicket. At CM, management has been pretty sensitive to distinguish between the clumsy newbie and the arrogant teenagers. - Skiing with an expired ticket/pass: At areas like CM, this too can be an honest mistake, if it's 5:30PM and your ticket esxpired at 5PM. Other than that, I've never seen this happen. - Skiing with a fake ticket/pass: This I've never seen - Making fake vouchers: This I've never seen - Employees giving out freebies: This is a fringe benefit and is perfectly legal. - Scalping in the parking lot: Case 1: The last year before ASC went under, I was at Killington where before I bought my ticket I was met by some people who asked me if I'd buy my ticket from them. They explained that they had done some work for the mountain and the mountain paid them in vouchers which would expire at the end of the season. Legal or not, I think they were morally in the right and I was comfortable buying the ticket from them. Case 2: In the 1970's, I was told a story specifically about Belleayre. I don't know if it was true. A contractor was told that the state would be approving some work and he started doing the job "at risk". The man who assured him that the job would be approved, paid him under the table with a roll of vouchers. All would have be OK had he not got caught. Case 3: Scalping in the parking lot is a problem, especially when it is done by mountain employees selling their earned comps. Very tempting to some making minimum wage to be able to double their day's pay by selling one of their EARNED free tickets. Naturally mountain mgmt. is OK with people doing that off premises. But to do it in the parking lot is essentially stealing from the mountain since these guests would have bought tickets from the mountain. A couple that rocket21 missed: One ticket shared by two people. Occasionally, a couple (or group of three) will buy one (or two) tickets and the other will be the designated babysitter for an hour. Then switch parkas. Areas with upper lifts: "n" people buy two tickets. Two go to an upper lift where tickets are not checked. One remains. The other skis down with his ticket and the ticket of the person left at the upper lift. Process repeats until "n" people are skiing the upper lift. __________ Joshua Segal

photogf128 Profile \| Galleries Rank: Member Since: Apr 10, 2004 Posts: 2605 Location:MRV Vermont	Posted: Jun 11, 2012 - 7:37 PM GMT Having scannable bar codes on tickets, vouchers, season passes etc has really changed the game but if the product isn't scanned the system it's worthless. On busy days like Saturdays and holidays there is such an impatient huge line that the the staff member with the scanner can miss a few folks. As most of you know the assumption on the uppers lifts is that everyone getting in line has a proper ski ticket, you know what they they about assuming...lol A resort can invest thousands of more dollars in one of those systems like at a toll booth which reads everyones product before they can proceed without setting off some sort of alarm. One of the drawbacks of the scanning system, especially in the spring, a guest buys his ticket, has it connected by one of those plastic ties, then wants to change jackets later in the day. Unless you carry scissors your not getting that sucker off so you have to trudge back into the lodge to have someone cut the tie and give you a new one. Carry extras and a Swiss Army knife, problem solved. __________ facebook.com/profile.php?id=1454198707#!/pages/American-Photoart-Gallery/90884206988

bobbutts Profile \| Galleries Rank: Member Since: Nov 20, 2006 Posts: 609 Location:Central NH	Posted: Jun 11, 2012 - 7:43 PM GMT Any anecdotes about arrests when people are busted for this, or is it generally a slap on the wrist? I remember going sans-ticket a few times way back when I was broke and immoral. Did Jiminy and Brodie both on the same day with no ticket at either.

joshua segal Profile \| Galleries Rank: Member Since: Jul 12, 2004 Posts: 5941 Location:NH	Posted: Jun 11, 2012 - 8:10 PM GMT Quote: Any anecdotes about arrests when people are busted for this, or is it generally a slap on the wrist? I was told that the procedure at CM is that if it is obviously not one of the accidental, "I lost my ticket", the liftie accompanies the thief to a ticket window. If the thief refuses to buy a ticket, the police are called. If it is someone already known to management as a troublemaker, management makes them buy the ticket, immediately confiscates it and accompanies them to the parking lot. Again, I've never seen it, but that was what one of the lifties told me was the policy. __________ Joshua Segal

boat Profile \| Galleries Rank: Member Since: Nov 13, 2008 Posts: 6 Location:	Posted: Jun 11, 2012 - 9:08 PM GMT The most popular form of fraud I hear about is people skiing with some else's season pass. In the late 1990's at Loon the ticket checker could pull up the pass holders date of birth on the scanner after they scanned the pass. This allowed them to quiz the pass user about their DOB if they suspected fraud. The ticket checkers back then got a good bounty for catching fraud. There were two lifties who repeatedly made more in a week in bounties for catching fraud than they did in their hourly pay. Another popular fraud is employees at Loon going to guest services and saying they forgot their season pass. They are given a pass for the day with their name printed on it. They give the ticket to a friend and get in line behind one another. A good ticket checker will check all the season passes around a person with a "forgotten pass ticket". After they are caught the employee looses his pass, and his job. Hopefully his buddy pick up the tab for the beers that night. Several years back four 20 something's were caught using season passes with the same name and picture on the passes. One pass holder claimed he lost his pass three times at the loaf and was given three replacements. They must have caught on to their scam in Maine and decided to try their luck in NH.

MissDaEast Profile \| Galleries Rank: Member Since: Dec 17, 2002 Posts: 2317 Location:So. Cal / Exit 1-I89,VT	Posted: Jun 11, 2012 - 9:27 PM GMT Quote: A couple that rocket21 missed: One ticket shared by two people. Occasionally, a couple (or group of three) will buy one (or two) tickets and the other will be the designated babysitter for an hour. Then switch parkas. Guilty, as charged! I do consider myself to be about the most honest critter who ever happened down the pike, but I have to admit that my husband and I did this when our children were young. I had a pretty clear conscience about it too. Mammoth Mountain(our "local" - six hours away- area) charged a lot for tickets, and there was no way we were going to pay for two adult tickets when one of us (yours truly) would only get a few runs in at lunchtime, and the other (my husband) barely got a few good runs in without having to ski the Greens with the kids. We would not have skied at all (nor would our children), if we had to puchase full day tickets for each of us. As it was, the ski area still took in a lot of our money, and we were happy that we could ski at all. Win-Win! I consider it a case of following the "spirit" of the law, if not the "letter" of the law.

pucknski Profile \| Galleries Rank: Member Since: May 27, 2004 Posts: 73 Location:	Posted: Jun 11, 2012 - 10:36 PM GMT Hey everyone, just wanted to shed some light on the ticket subject from out here in Vail. Lift tickets are the number 1 revenue source on the mountain(s) for Vail resorts. That Being said this subject is taken very seriously. My numbers may not be correct 100% but they are close and should give you an Idea. Each year at Vail they catch a couple hundred people using deceptive passes. Scanners are paid a "Bounty" I believe its still $50 or so per person! If the scanner suspects something (i.e. not the persons picture on the pass) They will ask questions with the info appearing on the scanner. They will also ask "is this you?" Once you have said no it isn't or lied and said yes when it isn't you. Thats where they have you. If you try and say it is a friends pass, they will detain you until that "friend" comes, at which time if the friend lent it to you, they will punish them. So someone is getting it! This is all in cooperation with the local judge who will fine you at least $1000 (epic pass is $650) You are usually banned for at least a season, more if you repeat. These deterrents seem to have kept these numbers pretty low for Vail. Just gotta suck it up and buy the pass Though harder to prove you should see what they do to people who try and teach "under ground"!!

photogf128 Profile \| Galleries Rank: Member Since: Apr 10, 2004 Posts: 2605 Location:MRV Vermont	Posted: Jun 11, 2012 - 11:55 PM GMT Since it perfectly acceptable for a person to buy multple day tickets, dad buys for the family, for example, I don't get how a " banned" person with a legit day ticket would not be able to ski/ride, especially at such a big place as Vail. __________ facebook.com/profile.php?id=1454198707#!/pages/American-Photoart-Gallery/90884206988

jaytrem Profile \| Galleries Rank: Member Since: Mar 21, 2002 Posts: 1074 Location:	Posted: Jun 12, 2012 - 12:13 AM GMT Quote: I don't get how a " banned" person with a legit day ticket would not be able to ski/ride, especially at such a big place as Vail. I believe they would be given notice that if they set foot on the property they would be arrested for tresspassing. So if they're caught if a much bigger deal.

rocket21 Profile \| Galleries Rank: Member Since: Sep 13, 2001 Posts: 8403 Location:USA	Posted: Jun 12, 2012 - 2:00 AM GMT Quote: Any anecdotes about arrests when people are busted for this, or is it generally a slap on the wrist? One of my favorites is when the person is caught and forced to buy a lift ticket, only to have it ripped up in front of their face. __________ NewEnglandSkiHistory.com

bmwskier Profile \| Galleries Rank: Member Since: Dec 30, 2009 Posts: 490 Location:Northern Vermont	Posted: Jun 12, 2012 - 9:47 AM GMT I'm not sure if anyone can be "forced" to buy a ticket-- it sounds good, but what power does the ski area or employee have to do this? Even a cop really can't do that-- all he or she can do is slap some cuffs on them and take them away. Buying a pass/ticket also means acceptance of risk (it is a "contract". Any stories about someone not buying one, getting hurt and then suing?

tedede Profile \| Galleries Rank: Member Since: Nov 15, 2004 Posts: 806 Location:Amherst, NH	Posted: Jun 12, 2012 - 11:19 AM GMT Bretton Woods offers a family interchangeable ticket. A blog about it here. They're the only one I'm aware of that does this. As for the swapping tickets, I'm always surprised there seems to be no consistency about replacement ticket ties. At places like Cannon, they make you go to guest services and swap tickets in front of a customer service agent. At other areas, they are just sitting on the counter for the taking.

rocket21 Profile \| Galleries Rank: Member Since: Sep 13, 2001 Posts: 8403 Location:USA	Posted: Jun 12, 2012 - 11:49 AM GMT Quote: I'm not sure if anyone can be "forced" to buy a ticket-- it sounds good, but what power does the ski area or employee have to do this? Power of persuasion. Quote: Buying a pass/ticket also means acceptance of risk (it is a "contract". Any stories about someone not buying one, getting hurt and then suing? It's happened, though not always on account of skiing related injuries. __________ NewEnglandSkiHistory.com

itzthebigo Profile \| Galleries Rank: Member Since: Feb 22, 2005 Posts: 41 Location:	Posted: Jun 12, 2012 - 4:39 PM GMT suprised you all missed what i would assume to be the most common theft of service: misrepresenting the age of your child to save on the ticket cost; in other words claiming your 14 year old teen is only 12 to be able to purchase the junior ticket. there is nothing ski areas can do as pre driving age teenagers do not carry identification; fortunately the monetary loss is minimal compared to pass sharing

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