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Hunter and Wyndam are going after Belleayre

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Author	Post
rocket21 Profile \| Galleries Rank: Member Since: Sep 13, 2001 Posts: 8404 Location:USA	Posted: Jun 27, 2008 - 10:49 AM GMT Quote: I still don't get why hunter is blocked from expansion and belleayre is drawing up all these plans to expand? Because the state is one of the few entities that is able to not only stop them dead in their tracks, but also take their money and give it to their competition, who they then hold back from developing, often on property they own privately! __________ NewEnglandSkiHistory.com

4aprice Profile \| Galleries Rank: Member Since: Jan 16, 2006 Posts: 999 Location:Lake Hopatcong, NJ	Posted: Jun 27, 2008 - 12:44 PM GMT Quote: [ The trouble he has is that NYS will lease him the use of their land but will not allow him to put a lift on it. This is a major problem which is very fustrating for him. Russ I thought Plattekill lay outside the Catskill Preserve. The regulations up there are a mess. It could be a major tourist attraction but the people can't use the land (or water for that matter). Wasn't Hillary supposed to fix this?(just kidding). Alex Lake Hopatcong, NJ

jimk Profile \| Galleries Rank: Member Since: Aug 27, 2004 Posts: 1066 Location:Wash DC area	Posted: Jun 27, 2008 - 1:13 PM GMT Quote: I like ALL of the Catskill ski areas, state owned AND private. Remember, Belleayre was built decades before their competition. The founders of Wyndam, Plattekill, and Hunter chose to be located near Belleayre. For many years, those ski areas had better lifts and lodging than Belleayre, and derived their profits accordingly. Also, the towns around Belleayre are very economically depressed. I think Belleayre's expansion is more or less making up for their stunted growth of the past. If Belleayre was sold to a private developer, Wyndham, Plattekill, and Hunter would still complain. This post resonated with me. I thought NYS got involved with Bell, Gore, Whiteface to bring economic development to depressed rural areas? Still seems a worthy goal, esp at isolated Gore and Whiteface. I'd let Belleayre improvements proceed, but offer expansion or tax concessions to the nearby private areas as a compromise. Whether a direct or indirect effect of the Belleayre bargains, the low ticket prices offered by all the Catskills ski areas via bargain days, liftopia, potter bros, etc. attracted me from far away to visit and spend money in the region this past spring. Another recent article on subject: Catskills fracas

skiingfanatic68 Profile \| Galleries Rank: Member Since: May 09, 2004 Posts: 442 Location:Greencastle, PA	Posted: Jun 27, 2008 - 1:35 PM GMT Not sure anyone saw this article the other day, alot of good info. It seems they are ruffling feathers outside the Catskills region also. Belleayre article

ThatNYguy Profile \| Galleries Rank: Member Since: Sep 08, 2001 Posts: 1748 Location:Circling near Albany, NY	Posted: Jun 27, 2008 - 6:36 PM GMT Quote: I thought Plattekill lay outside the Catskill Preserve. The regulations up there are a mess. It could be a major tourist attraction but the people can't use the land (or water for that matter) The NYS property that lies next to Plattekill is reforestation not forever wild, same as Bearpen. NYS government is corrupt and its employees are planning the game all the way to retirement. Russ

montebedi Profile \| Galleries Rank: Member Since: Apr 02, 2007 Posts: 535 Location:Ridgewood, NY	Posted: Jun 28, 2008 - 6:12 AM GMT Quote: I still don't get why hunter is blocked from expansion and belleayre is drawing up all these plans to expand? Quote: Because the state is one of the few entities that is able to not only stop them dead in their tracks, but also take their money and give it to their competition, who they then hold back from developing, often on property they own privately! Ok fine that may be the reality but does the stat say the reason is? Does anyone know?

jamesdeluxe Profile \| Galleries Rank: Member Since: Jan 05, 2003 Posts: 529 Location:South Orange, NJ	Posted: Jun 28, 2008 - 10:37 AM GMT If Belleayre is forced to make concessions to Greene County, will that precedent open the floodgates to almost any business "competing" against a state-run concern and claiming an unfair playing field? To me, the most important first step is to clean up the entire DEC/Conflict of Interest perception concerning private-areas ability to expand. FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE JUNE 27, 2008 ULSTER COUNTY LEGISLATIVE CHAIRMAN, DAVID B. DONALDSON, IS CALLING ON ULSTER RESIDENTS TO BOYCOTT ACTIVITIES AT HUNTER AND WINDHAM MOUNTAIN SKI AREAS Ulster County Legislature Chairman David B. Donaldson is urging local residents to show their support for Belleayre Mountain, one of the largest tourism attractions in Ulster County, by boycotting Hunter and Windham as their festival season begins and into their ski season if they continue. Donaldson’s stance is in response to Greene County officials and ski center operators non-stop attacks over the past year on Belleayre Mountain and its status as a state-owned and operated ski center. “These attacks on Belleayre, which has always been state-operated and was created before Hunter and Windham, are unfounded and unjustified,” Donaldson said. “Any cuts to Belleayre Mountain would seriously affect Ulster County’s tax base and revenues as well as impact employment opportunities for Ulster residents. I am urging Ulster County residents to stick together and defend Belleayre against unjustified criticism and if they continue, I urge Ulster residents to boycott Hunter and Windham.” Donaldson said it is unfortunate that State Sen. Seward, Interim Greene County Administrator Daniel Frank and Greene County Legislature Chairman Wayne Speenburgh, along with the operators of Hunter and Windham, have worked to get a bill passed in both the Assembly and State Senate to establish a blue ribbon committee to examine unfair competition in the outdoor recreation industry. "This bill is targeted at Belleayre Mountain Ski Center, a state facility mandated by the New York State Constitution and re-affirmed in an amendment passed by the voters of the State in 1987. If this legislation becomes law, it calls into question the State’s right to provide low cost recreation for its citizens. Are they going to study the impact of Jones Beach? Bethpage Golf Course? State Campgrounds? And how about local parks, pools and the like, that receive State funding? When they finish studying the impact of State recreation outdoors - will they then study the impact of the State University system on private colleges? The State has legitimate interest in operating recreation facilities and does it well and in line with its mandates. The study being proposed is a waste of time and money, so make no mistake this is aimed directly at Belleayre,” Donaldson said. “Private interests in Greene County are looking for a competitive advantage by attacking Belleayre. New York State is mandated by the Constitution to operate Belleayre in a manner that benefits its citizens and provides an economic catalyst for the local community. It is succeeding in both. Real estate interests in Greene County do not trump the will of the people of the State of New York and the economic interests of Ulster County.” Donaldson urged Gov. Patterson not to sign Sen. Seward’s bill and protect the right of the citizens of New York to provide public recreation at a reasonable price for all its citizens – not just the rich. “Belleayre makes skiing affordable to everyone,” Donaldson said, “and it provides a tremendous product that everyone should be able to continue to enjoy. Ulster County does not intend to allow anything to occur which will damage Belleayre’s right to operate a reasonable, first-rate ski area.” __________ NY Ski Magazine: mag.NYSkiBlog.com

skipatrol40s Profile \| Galleries Rank: Member Since: Apr 29, 2002 Posts: 1479 Location:	Posted: Jun 28, 2008 - 12:56 PM GMT James as always nice job on that article. I wish I could write like that. Good point by David Donaldson on State run Universities. We can also include public elementary and high schools, which are becoming big businesses. Socialism has always been extremely controversial, which is a by product of the cold war. United States stood for capitalism and free enterprise. Socialism is what other countries did. Volunteerism on the other hand was something that was respected and encouraged in the United States. JFK - “Ask not what your country can do for you — ask what you can do for your country.” I am member of the local volunteer fire department. Volunteer fire departments and EMS are an extremely important part of communities all across the United States. To put a value on these volunteer services is well into many billions of dollars. Its all paid for by taxes. The tradition of the National Ski Patrol and ski areas in America has been to provide care on the hill and transport patients off the mountain with no charge to the patients for in bounds rescues. Most European countries have been led by Socialist rulers for some time now, all elected by the people. Socialism is inherent throughout the USA as well; the Public School Systems, Unemployment Benefits, Social Security, Police, Fire Department … even the Army can be considered a Socialist institution (this can be debated, of course, but it fits the principles). Some may consider the National Ski Patrol a Socialist institution because they don't charge directly for services. All 100 percent socialism doesn't work very well. I don't think 100 percent capitalism if it were ever tried would work very well either. How would Hurricane relief help and help for the 911 catastrophe work in a society where everyone had to be paid to help others in need. Yes private capitalism will compete with government run services. I think there needs to be a mixture of capitalism and (free services, government run services. volunteerism, socialism call it whatever) for any country/society to survive. What the recipe is for that mixture is why we have elections and politicians. Remember, if you are ever unfortunate to have a motor vehicle accident, that first responder EMT on the scene that may be saving your life or a loved one by keeping the air way open is probably not getting paid one cent. Yes that volunteer EMT is in direct competition with paid ambulance services. It happens every hour across America. The above are my personal views on this subject and should not reflect the views of any organization I belong to. Todays Daily Freeman Article click here.

ThatNYguy Profile \| Galleries Rank: Member Since: Sep 08, 2001 Posts: 1748 Location:Circling near Albany, NY	Posted: Jun 28, 2008 - 3:28 PM GMT A new questions arises: Why is NYS land not available for complete development leasing? Russ

montebedi Profile \| Galleries Rank: Member Since: Apr 02, 2007 Posts: 535 Location:Ridgewood, NY	Posted: Jun 28, 2008 - 9:55 PM GMT Quote: A new questions arises: Why is NYS land not available for complete development leasing? Russ I believe "forever wild" might have something to do with it.

skierpilot Profile \| Galleries Rank: Member Since: Apr 01, 2006 Posts: 632 Location:	Posted: Jun 28, 2008 - 10:13 PM GMT We could also bring Gore and Whiteface into the ugly situation. They are both expanding and I believe there is a plan for private housing/condos? next to the Gore expansion.As others have suggested, alot of our taxes are used for a wide variety of activities throughout the state.

ThatNYguy Profile \| Galleries Rank: Member Since: Sep 08, 2001 Posts: 1748 Location:Circling near Albany, NY	Posted: Jun 28, 2008 - 11:29 PM GMT Quote: I believe "forever wild" might have something to do with it. OK... Belleayre is within the Catskill Park Blue Line, thus the land would be "forever wild". Hunter and Windham would face the same issue but NYS can get around this issue with "greater ease". This is an advantage. Now... Outside the Catskill Park Blue, why are NYS lands not available for complete development leasing? Russ

montebedi Profile \| Galleries Rank: Member Since: Apr 02, 2007 Posts: 535 Location:Ridgewood, NY	Posted: Jun 29, 2008 - 4:53 AM GMT Quote: We could also bring Gore and Whiteface into the ugly situation. They are both expanding and I believe there is a plan for private housing/condos? next to the Gore expansion.As others have suggested, alot of our taxes are used for a wide variety of activities throughout the state. Well yes they use tax payer $ but I think we have established ORDA doesn't regulate their competition like the DEC does.

Skileader Profile \| Galleries Rank: Member Since: Jan 15, 2002 Posts: 1000 Location:Long Island N.Y.	Posted: Jun 29, 2008 - 5:22 AM GMT I have been following this dicussion with some interest. It would make sense to put all 3 areas under one roof. This would eliminate, in part the conflict of interest issue. ORDA opperates as a government entity with it's own budget like DOT or DMV. Econ has a different relationship. I have seen all kinds of goverment foolishness in the 30+ years I've dealt with Econ. Once at Whiteface I had an extra group ticket. Instead of issuing a voucher or giving me a refund they handed me a form to mail to Albany. The last day Gore operated under Econ was Sat Mar 31 1984. They were going to close in the middle of the W/E because the NYS fiscal year ended that day and the new budget wasn't passed yet. Albany had to pass a special appropiation to fund sun Apr 1. The state legislature once passed an appropiation so Belleaye could put in a snowmaking pond, but it took 2 more years to appropiate the $ for pipe. Then there was the Nelson Spears(Sears)? scandle. As manager of Belleayre he made up his own lift tickets and it was one for the State one for me. Then he, or one of his flunkys threw the leftovers in the woods where someone found them. All in all I think the growth, and increased business is a good thing, but so is it for the other 3 areas. If that issue can be resolved, let all 3 or 4 expand (within reason) and prosper. __________ Bob P.

skipatrol40s Profile \| Galleries Rank: Member Since: Apr 29, 2002 Posts: 1479 Location:	Posted: Jun 29, 2008 - 2:24 PM GMT Edited: Jun 29, 2008 - 3:14 PM GMT Quote skileader: I have been following this dicussion with some interest. It would make sense to put all 3 areas under one roof. Bob - that sounds like a good plan. I know you have decades of experience in the ski industry. Unfortunatly, I have to remind myself the way NY State is run. NY State is run out of one big general account and the decisions are made by ----> The ORDA plan sounds all good but at the end of the day it really doesn't accomplish much. Any change would take a change to the NY State constitution(State wide proposition vote in November), which is a lot of work only to change public perception of improved fairness in NY State government. Lets be honest here: Would it really improve the fairness of the way things are managed in NY State? Would Belleayre be treated fairly by ORDA? There are hard working folks just hanging on to support themselves in Delaware, Greene, and Ulster counties. Increasing tourism in one community without impacting another is very difficult. Obviously every politician wants any increased tourism plans to be in their district. I don't think we want to sacrifice one community to improve another. I am hopeful that political leaders will eventually work together for the greater good of all NY state residents and the hard working families throughout the entire Catskill mountain region. For this to happen fairly, NY State needs skier visit numbers from all the ski areas. More Catskill mountain ski trails and lodge space would also be nice to help reduce over crowded weekend/holiday conditions. I believe no matter where you build it, they will come.

z1000307470 Profile \| Galleries Rank: Member Since: May 07, 2004 Posts: 504 Location:Bergen County, NJ	Posted: Jun 30, 2008 - 5:14 PM GMT Edited: Jun 30, 2008 - 5:54 PM GMT "Would Belleayre be treated fairly by ORDA?" The answer is no. Gore never gets its share of the ORDA pie. The OR in ORDA stands for Olympic Regional. Gore is out of sight and out of mind to the Lake Placid centric ORDA. Belleayre would get even less than Gore. Some recent examples of Gore not getting its due are the Top Ridge Fixed Triple, the gondola, and Ruby Run. The triple was supposed to be a HSQ. Instead Gore got this used lift from Whiteface. The gondola was supposed to go to the top of Gore like the old gondola. The High Peaks double chair was shortened to fit the new gondola on the summit. There is a green run (Cloud which is now reclassified blue)from the summit. The new gondola stops on Bear Mtn, 200 vertical feet above the existing Adirondack Express and nowhere near the summit. The gondola was finished 1999. They finally built Ruby Run, the only green run that the gondola serves, for the 2007-2008 season. FYI - ORDA is responsible for Whiteface, the bobsled runs, the ice skating facilities, the ski jumps, the x country trails, and Gore. There have never been any National or International events at Gore. I could go on but you get the picture. Belleayre is better served by the existing situation.

skizilla Profile \| Galleries Rank: Member Since: Aug 05, 2004 Posts: 457 Location:Southwick, Ma	Posted: Jun 30, 2008 - 5:30 PM GMT I gotta disagree with the bellayre haters. I have nvere skied bellayre but want to desperately. That being said i have skied hunter and windham. Every time I have been to them windham 3 times hunter once and it is now banned, they have been mobbed with people. So badly that i refuse to ski either on a weekend anymore. Even the two time I skied them on week days there were far more people in attendance than most vermont places i ski. Both mountains are inferior to just about any mid to large VT mountain I have skied. But they are close to NY and CT and considering the montain they have to work with they do a fair job. BUT THEY ARE MOBBED and given how many people there are they cannot be hurting for cash, thus making the unfairness point moot. If they are hurting for cash they are doing something really wrong or like many places the energy prices are hurting which is fair. But come on. Several weekend I had to park along the road and walk a mile to the base lodge. The shuttle wouldnt stop to pick us up at windham. At hunter we skied midweek as college students. At the time no discount......for anyone prices were the same and not much cheaper than weekend rates. They also shut down one of the lifts for the day when i asked why they said they did not have enough business to justify opening it. This on a weekday where I was always behind at least ten chairs to get on a chair. For a weekday this is mobbed in vt i maybe wait two chairs to get on on a weekday. I have very little sympathy for either mountain considering how busy they are. They should consider running a more efficient mountain or upping their prices if they are that concerned with profitability. They have a captive rich market with nyc and ct next door who will pay. __________ There is no truth only coercion of opinion

skipatrol40s Profile \| Galleries Rank: Member Since: Apr 29, 2002 Posts: 1479 Location:	Posted: Jul 01, 2008 - 12:08 PM GMT Quote: ...BUT THEY ARE MOBBED and given how many people there are they cannot be hurting for cash, thus making the unfairness point moot. Good point skizilla. Some things just don't add up. A few things about public perception of the Catskills ski resorts: Nobody skis Hunter/Windham because its too crowded Instead of skiing Hunter/Windham, because its too crowded, everyone skis at Belleayre, which is never crowded. State run Belleayre takes customers away from private run Hunter/Windham customers because Belleayre's ticket prices are cheaper, Belleayre is never crowded, and Hunter/Windham are too crowded. This is kind of like my check book that never really balances out and you will never know why. The truth is out there somewhere. Disclaimer: If the above doesn't make any sense to you, its because its not suppose to. Suggestion: Don't believe everything you hear. Go try out Belleayre, Hunter, Plattekill, and Windham for yourself. I will give you one hint though. Really good expert skiers will have a very different opinion about each ski area then advance intermediate skiers. Each ski area has it strengths and weaknesses.

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