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Mapping open ski areas in Google Earth?

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andyeich Profile \| Galleries Rank: Member Since: Dec 29, 2007 Posts: 43 Location:	Posted: Dec 29, 2007 - 3:20 AM GMT This topic covers creation of trail maps for NELSAP ski areas, but is anyone interested in cooperatively mapping the open ski areas as well? It would be interesting to have them in Google Earth--I think it would then be possible to write add-on programs to spit out all kinds of statistics. We could then publish the "true" (within the limits of GE accuracy) stats for all the mountains and do interesting comparisons of trail difficulty, ski area size, etc. I know this isn't really a NELSAP post, but seeing threads like the ski area design challenge, I thought it might be the right audience. I suppose it could be of use in understanding the viability of NELSAP areas. An example can be found here.

davidhowland14 Profile \| Galleries Rank: Member Since: Nov 20, 2007 Posts: 268 Location:Cape Cod, MA	Posted: Dec 29, 2007 - 3:32 AM GMT that's gonna be quite a job. snocountry.com has 705 open areas now, so there are bound to be more than that total. Although that total is the world, i think. __________ ...between the click of the light and the start of the dream...

joshua segal Profile \| Galleries Rank: Member Since: Jul 12, 2004 Posts: 4270 Location:NH	Posted: Dec 29, 2007 - 4:12 AM GMT Isn't that what http://www.snowjournal.com/page.php?cid=topic11095 is about? __________ Joshua Segal

andyeich Profile \| Galleries Rank: Member Since: Dec 29, 2007 Posts: 43 Location:	Posted: Dec 29, 2007 - 4:20 AM GMT I don't think so--my understanding is that the NELSAP map is to locate the areas, but they don't create trail maps as would be needed to get stats. This is far geekier! :^) As for it being a lot of work, yes, though I thought it would start with New England.

skiingfanatic68 Profile \| Galleries Rank: Member Since: May 09, 2004 Posts: 402 Location:Greencastle, PA	Posted: Dec 29, 2007 - 1:48 PM GMT Quote: that's gonna be quite a job. snocountry.com has 705 open areas now, so there are bound to be more than that total. Although that total is the world, i think. Actually there are more that the 705 ski areas that are still in operating. It is a ski area's choice to list their conditions with Snocountry.com, some of the smaller areas do not list their info there, but do have it their own website. But I agree it is a huge under taking for the project. I'm up for it, the unfortunate part is Google Earth seems to hate my software It use to work but then started having problem with the images appearing currently.

mapnut Profile \| Galleries Rank: Member Since: Jul 31, 2002 Posts: 3993 Location:New York City	Posted: Dec 29, 2007 - 3:27 PM GMT Don't use Google Earth to get summit elevations. Many of them are off by 100 feet or so, always on the short side.

woodchuckvt Profile \| Galleries Rank: Member Since: Jan 18, 2006 Posts: 191 Location:SF	Posted: Dec 29, 2007 - 4:39 PM GMT I have actually been working on a project like that in my spare time using that same communitywalk program that the nelsap area map is on. I have all of the opreating ski areas in New England (that I know of) on there (along with personal opinions and reviews of areas I've skied), and I've been in the process of trying to organize the info into something somewhat..useful...but I've really basically just let it be after I added all the locales. If anyone has any suggestions or additions, feel free to take a look at it (it can be found here.) It's definiltey a little rough around the edges, but if anyone wants to use that as some kind of starting point, go ahead. __________ If you french fry when you should've pizza'd, YOU'RE GONNA HAVE A BAD TIME.

andyeich Profile \| Galleries Rank: Member Since: Dec 29, 2007 Posts: 43 Location:	Posted: Dec 29, 2007 - 8:45 PM GMT Quote: Don't use Google Earth to get summit elevations. Many of them are off by 100 feet or so, always on the short side. Interesting--do you know if it is due to a different datum (e.g. WGS84) than other sources such as topo maps? If so, that could be corrected, but if not, I believe you can download more accurate topography packages.

mapnut Profile \| Galleries Rank: Member Since: Jul 31, 2002 Posts: 3993 Location:New York City	Posted: Dec 29, 2007 - 9:35 PM GMT Just a guess, but I suspect the program averages data points in the vicinity of the pointer. So at the summit you are averaging the summit data point with lower elevations nearby.

andyeich Profile \| Galleries Rank: Member Since: Dec 29, 2007 Posts: 43 Location:	Posted: Dec 29, 2007 - 10:33 PM GMT That makes sense--so it would improve with higher res terrain data, but not be correct unless you overrode the "clamp to ground" elevation GE provides using a topo or GPS survey value. Any other suggestions? If it's to be useful for calculating statistics, some standards would have to be determined, for example: --lifts use a standard color, or maybe are in a separate folder so they can always be separated from trails. --lifts' notes sections indicate in some standard way what type of lift it is --standard colors indicate trail difficulty so they can be separated --etc, etc, etc. I think a wiki would be a convenient tool to develop these guidelines. I'm thinking that for most areas, we'd start with just lifts, from which vertical drop could be determined, and added together for all lifts and/or combined with capacity information to get statistics that would indicate the quality of the whole lift system. Adding trail centerlines would permit calculation of trail mileage, analysis of steepness of each trail and comparisons such as "what is the easiest black at this area?" or "what resort has the steepest blues?" Adding trail boundaries would permit calculation of skiable acreage. Outline of the overall area would allow calculation of maximum acreage, which might catch some areas that grossly overstate this stat. Also, the ratio of this and skiable acreage would give a good idea of how crowded or spread out an area might feel. If you went all-out, the completed areas might rival James Niehues' maps.

davidhowland14 Profile \| Galleries Rank: Member Since: Nov 20, 2007 Posts: 268 Location:Cape Cod, MA	Posted: Dec 29, 2007 - 11:33 PM GMT im in for new hampshire. Do we have an official list to work from? I agree that a wiki would be a good tool to use on this. want me to set one up? i'm willing to help alot with this. I already have pat's peak, crotched, ragged, most of waterville, and most of cannon done, i think. __________ ...between the click of the light and the start of the dream...

andyeich Profile \| Galleries Rank: Member Since: Dec 29, 2007 Posts: 43 Location:	Posted: Dec 29, 2007 - 11:41 PM GMT Sounds great! If you can set up a wiki that would be excellent. You've got NH. If you haven't done Wildcat yet, I wouldn't mind doing that one--I'm going there soon and it would be a good intro. Thoughts on where the results should be posted? The Google Earth Community thread I linked to above is ok, though it doesn't have all the areas, just the ones the original poster has skiied. Nothing to say we can't add new areas to it, but if there's a better option please suggest it. I have: ME: Sunday River, Mt. Abram, Saddleback, and Sugarloaf PA: Ski Roundtop, Elk, Montage/Sno, Denton, Camelback, Shawnee NY: Greek Peak, Song Mtn The new Tablet PC touchscreen works great for this.

davidhowland14 Profile \| Galleries Rank: Member Since: Nov 20, 2007 Posts: 268 Location:Cape Cod, MA	Posted: Dec 30, 2007 - 5:04 AM GMT Edited: Dec 30, 2007 - 5:05 AM GMT ok, i've created the wiki. I tentatively titled it the Google Earth Open Ski Areas Project. This gives us a killer acronym: GEOSAP. the wiki is located here: http://geosap.wikidot.com/start right now you have to register with wikidot in order to make changes, but im looking in to changing that. right now im just filling in information as i come up with it, just to get something down on the web. One Problem: north peak area at loon has a cloud in the way. __________ ...between the click of the light and the start of the dream...

andyeich Profile \| Galleries Rank: Member Since: Dec 29, 2007 Posts: 43 Location:	Posted: Dec 30, 2007 - 11:23 AM GMT Awesome acronym! I joined wikidot, but it doesn't allow me to edit (presumably because I haven't joined the wiki). When I try to join, it says this: "So you want to become a member of this site? Tell us why and apply now! You can not apply. Membership via application is not enabled for this site. Or, if you already know a "secret password", go for it! You can not apply. Membership via password is not enabled for this site." We'll also find some areas where GE doesn't yet have hi res pictures suitable for making a trail map--Whiteface is one I encountered already. Also, some poor satellite image alignment was done at Sugarbush, which makes me wonder whether the resulting data will be workable.

davidhowland14 Profile \| Galleries Rank: Member Since: Nov 20, 2007 Posts: 268 Location:Cape Cod, MA	Posted: Dec 30, 2007 - 5:29 PM GMT sorry about that...you should be able to apply for membership now. __________ ...between the click of the light and the start of the dream...

andyeich Profile \| Galleries Rank: Member Since: Dec 29, 2007 Posts: 43 Location:	Posted: Jan 02, 2008 - 3:25 AM GMT Just wanted to let you all know that David and I have made some significant progress on this project: http://geosap.wikidot.com ... and we welcome additional help! We especially need help from anyone who is familiar with the Google Earth COM API, or at least is familiar enough with programming to know where to start. I am sure it will grow to include some NELSAP areas in the future.

davidhowland14 Profile \| Galleries Rank: Member Since: Nov 20, 2007 Posts: 268 Location:Cape Cod, MA	Posted: Jan 09, 2008 - 5:14 AM GMT woodchuck and bob, I accepted your invites. We're still moving along at GEOSAP and are still eager for more help. Come check out www.geosap.wikidot.com __________ ...between the click of the light and the start of the dream...

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