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Monadnock

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weedywart
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Posted: Feb 22, 2007 - 10:41 PM GMT
Edited: Feb 22, 2007 - 10:56 PM GMT

Sorry, I don't consider Wikipedia a geological authority. However, if you want to call Ascutney a monadnock, you won't do it in my presence, so go ahead. It occured to me today that I have seen Monadnocks outside of N.E. Have you? Many of the downhill ski areas in the scoff zone of the midwest lie on monadnocks. Mt. Wittlesey in Wisconsin impressed me as to what a monadnock was while Acutney what it wasn't.
arcticgriz
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Posted: Feb 23, 2007 - 11:06 AM GMT

weedywart, didja see this in the new york times?

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/21/education/21wikipedia.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
weedywart
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Posted: Feb 23, 2007 - 11:33 AM GMT

articgriz, I hadn't seen that and thank you for the link. I read it and have some comments. Let me quote from the article >>Wikipedia articles, written by hundreds of volunteers and subject to mistakes and sometimes deliberate falsehoods. Wikipedia itself has restricted the editing of some subjects, mostly because of repeated vandalism or disputes over what should be said.<< Vandalism? I've never seen that word used in such a context. >> Jimmy Wales, the co-founder of Wikipedia and chairman emeritus of its foundation, said of the Middlebury policy, “I don’t consider it as a negative thing at all.”

He continued: “Basically, they are recommending exactly what we suggested — students shouldn’t be citing encyclopedias. I would hope they wouldn’t be citing Encyclopaedia Britannica, either.<< What balderdash. As a matter of fact, Britannica and other repudiable encyclopaiedia's always attribute a source to their entries and usually they are qualified experts.
Whatever as to Monadnocks. I once asked a man who held a Ph. D. from B.U. in Geology about moraines in N.E. He started out by saying that there was a guy in Conn. who saw moraines all over the place. Look under your bed, there may be a monadnock.
Talisman
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Posted: Feb 23, 2007 - 12:34 PM GMT

Weedy, I understand your position that wikipedia is not a definitive geological source regarding monadnocks. What source can you site that lists monadnocks in New England? I am trying to learn more as I have seen Ascutney referenced in print as a monadnock and would like to learn more.
sledhaulingmedic
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Posted: Feb 23, 2007 - 2:49 PM GMT

Perhaps Ranom House Unabridged could be a more definitive source?
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source
mo·nad·nock /m&#601;&#712;nædn&#594;k/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[muh-nad-nok] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. Physical Geography. a residual hill or mountain standing well above the surface of a surrounding peneplain.
2. (initial capital letter) Mount, a mountain peak in SW New Hampshire. 3186 ft. (971 m).


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[Origin: 1735–45, Americanism; after (Grand) Monadnock (earlier name of Mount Monadnock) < a S New England Algonquian name, lit., isolated mountain]
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.

No peneplain (area eroded to nearly flat) surrounding Ascutney, hense not a Mondadnock, by this definition. Likewise, I don't see Mondadnock in VT as being a monadnock. Pack Monadnock certainly doesn't qualify, as it's/they're part of a range. Perhaps Little Monadnock?

I've always considered Wachusett to be a monadnock, but I might have to study a topo before I stick to that definition.

What about Devil's Tower? (There's likely a specific geological term for that over -grown stelagmite, but I don't know what it is.)

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rickbolger
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Posted: Feb 23, 2007 - 3:17 PM GMT
Edited: Feb 23, 2007 - 3:19 PM GMT

I believe Devil's Tower is called a "neck," kind of like Shiprock (NM), in other words, the exposed crystalline core of a volcano. Monadnocks are a batholithic formation, a sort of mushroom shaped precambrian bulge that has been exposed. Stone Mountain (GA) is another example of a monadnock. But even so, I understand "monadnock" to be a colloquial term (Indian origin, as pointed out above) whereas geologists tend to use more specific terms such as "stock" or "exfoliation dome" for particular types of batholiths, but I'm not sure about that.

Is Ascutney a precambrian rock? If it's the schist stuff of Mansfield, then I don't believe it could be considered a monadnock. but again, is monadnock truly a technical term? if it isn't, then the question of what is and what isn't a monadnock all depends on your point of view.
ciscokid
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Posted: Feb 23, 2007 - 7:28 PM GMT

This has been so educational(and controversial)that for a minute there I thought I was back in school and briefly forgot about skiing.

Being that Weedy has seen(or been to)thousands of mountains and/or ranges he would have my vote on whether a mountain is a Monadnock or not,I would never question his authority(especially in his presence)ever again and promise never to consult Wikipedia ever again so help me G!(HaHaHa) Hail to Professor Weedywart-King of the Monadnocks! LOL's

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weedywart
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Posted: Feb 24, 2007 - 12:46 PM GMT
Edited: Feb 25, 2007 - 12:30 PM GMT

There's always an idiot around with his opinion of the debate rather than the subject. He certainly can't come up with any way to address the ideas, and has little in the way of experience to understand them. When did the throw you out of school, ciscokid? Although the original intention of this thread wasn't to debate Monadnocks, the exchanges have changed my mind regarding them. Ascutney definitely is an interesting and unique case. I started to think differently when I remembered the name of the town across the river i.e. Plainfield, N.H. and then considered the area near Hartland, Vt. It lies in a small outwash plain which seems why it looms above it's surroundings like a monadnock. Talisman, there's no ultimate authority, especially regarding terms used in science, so you are better off leaving your mind open and consulting all serious authorities. However, field work would be the crux of understanding geology. I'ld start with the guy who coined the phrase and why he generalized it. Prabably, he did a lot of field work. Looking at Wisconsin, I found a lot of references to a peneplain which I've never seen before. I don't think you have to be limited to using the term monadnock with peneplains. Now, wa-wa is not an isolated Mtn., nor is it part of a range. However, it is on a ridge. I travelled with a geologists extensively and found out what a peneplain was in W. Va. When I passed through Wisconsin, I never thought I was on one. A peneplain would be a flat area that is rising prabably after a continental glacier has receded and taken it's heavy weight with it. In the great lakes region you have great lakes which were depressed areas left after the glaciers receded and the depressions filled in with water, some melt some rain and the peneplains of Minn., Wisconsin and Michigan. Although West Va. was described to me as a peneplain, the continental glaciation may not have gone that far south from what I know. Finally, Maxfield Parrish painted Ascutney when he was living at the Cornish Colony. Would a great artist care whether a mountain by any other name look any differently?
MadRider
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Posted: Feb 28, 2007 - 12:06 AM GMT

Interesting to see I've sparked another debate. For my part, I've seen Ascutney mentioned as a monadnock many times, so I'll step back and let the geologists duke it out. But I do wonder why VERMONT's "Mt. Monadnock" is called that if it ISN"T a monadnock.
I do feel I stand on firm ground commenting on the NH Monadnock's skiing qualities, that firm ground being the summit of the mountain itself as I have hiked it many many times. I've still got a skier's eye even if I haven't skied the place.
I'm sure it's good under the right conditions but I'm fairly convinced those conditions don't occur as frequently as we would like. It's very windy there due to its isolation, and it just doesn't get natural snow like farther north. So it's not on my "must ski" list. It's on my "might ski" list... any snow-covered hill is.

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weedywart
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Posted: Mar 02, 2007 - 10:42 AM GMT
Edited: Mar 02, 2007 - 4:47 PM GMT

Quote:
Interesting to see I've sparked another debate.
Sorry, I started the thread so perhaps I have sparked the debate. Whatever, I've included a panoramic photo which puts Ascutney in the center. It's prominent, but does not loom over a peneplain as you can see.
Quote:
I do wonder why VERMONT's "Mt. Monadnock" is called that if it ISN"T a monadnock.
What's there to wonder about? The name predated the term. The indians might have called it by that name, but I suspect that whomever settled in the Northern Kingdom prabably came from southern N.H. and were familiar with the original Monadnock Mtn. They started calling it that. I was up at Burke whose views include the Vt. Monadnock Mtn. from what I could figure from the Atlas. For the life of me, I did not notice any monadnocks out there. It was a good day for viewing, too. I could pick out Mt. Ellen, Camel's Hump, Mansfield and Jay all in Vermont. For reference I had seen the original monadnock from Rt. 93 the day before. Why couldn't I see any monadnocks from Burke's summit?
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weedywart
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Posted: Mar 19, 2007 - 11:06 AM GMT
Edited: Mar 19, 2007 - 11:16 AM GMT

O.K. I'm uploading a photo taken from Jonni's Gallery which he included in his Burke trip report of 3/13/07. It's a picture of the part of Vermont North West of Burke where one might find Vermont's Monadnock. Can someone identify any of the prominent mountains in the background of this photo? Is Monadnock there?Topo Monadnock
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roger47
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Posted: Mar 19, 2007 - 12:14 PM GMT
Edited: Mar 19, 2007 - 12:17 PM GMT

The Indian name "Monadnock" predates the geologists' application of the term to a specific geologic feature.

Anyway, here's a shot from Mount Monadnock in Jaffrey, N.H., on the Pumpelly Trail, about an eighth of a mile from the summit, which in this photo is bristling like a porcupine with hikers. The nature of the terrain is beautiful and interesting, and also makes it tough to ski.
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weedywart
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Posted: Mar 19, 2007 - 12:26 PM GMT

The pics is great, Rog, but I'm still wondering if you can see Vermont's Monadnock from Burke.
joshua segal
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Posted: Mar 19, 2007 - 12:28 PM GMT

Wikipedia's Definition and Word Origin:

A monadnock or inselberg is an isolated hill, knob, ridge, or small mountain that rises abruptly from a gently sloping or virtually level surrounding plain. In southern Africa a similar formation of granite boulders is known as a koppie.

Monadnock is an originally Native American term for an isolated hill or a lone mountain that has risen above the surrounding area, typically by surviving erosion. The name was taken from Mount Monadnock in southwestern New Hampshire (USA), near Keene. The name is thought to derive from the Abenaki language, from either menonadenak ("smooth mountain" ) or menadena ("isolated mountain" ).


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Joshua Segal
weedywart
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Posted: Mar 19, 2007 - 1:00 PM GMT

Quote:
Wikipedia's Definition and Word Origin:

A monadnock or inselberg is an isolated hill, knob, ridge, or small mountain that rises abruptly from a gently sloping or virtually level surrounding plain. In southern Africa a similar formation of granite boulders is known as a koppie.

Monadnock is an originally Native American term for an isolated hill or a lone mountain that has risen above the surrounding area, typically by surviving erosion. The name was taken from Mount Monadnock in southwestern New Hampshire (USA), near Keene. The name is thought to derive from the Abenaki language, from either menonadenak ("smooth mountain" ) or menadena ("isolated mountain" ).
Isn't this a repeat of the thread and didn't we determine that Wikipedia was not the definative source for scientific terms on the thread? Do you guys ever read the threads before you post? I would think you do spend some time thinking before speaking, but I certainly have my doubts.

mapnut
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Posted: Mar 19, 2007 - 1:16 PM GMT

[quote][quote] Whatever, I've included a panoramic photo which puts Ascutney in the center. It's prominent, but does not loom over a peneplain as you can see. [quote]

Somehow I missed Weedywart's post on March 2. Don't know whether he's challenging us to call him out on the photo he posted, but that's not a view of Vermont and Ascutney from Sunapee; it's looking south and is all NH. Possibly that's Monadnock in the distance on the right, but not Killington. He's posted that photo before. Ascutney from the top of Sunapee looks like this:
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joshua segal
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Posted: Mar 19, 2007 - 1:28 PM GMT

Re: the origins of the name "Monadnock".

While others in this thread referenced Wikipedia, I actually included the relevant part of the entry. Sled provided similar information from Random House Unabridged.

In the context of this forum, opinion is fine and subjective.

When arguing or disagreeing on factual material, citing corroborating sources is generallly considered appropriate.

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Joshua Segal
roger47
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Posted: Mar 19, 2007 - 3:35 PM GMT

Citing Wikipedia as a source is a bit like adopting "truthiness" as a basis of fact. It sure is easy to google stuff and get an answer from Wikipedia, but the answer is sometimes skewed, incomplete, or repetitious of erroneous information gleaned from some other cockamamie Web site. Sometimes it's right, but it's hard to tell when.


smelick
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Posted: Mar 19, 2007 - 4:03 PM GMT
Edited: Mar 19, 2007 - 4:08 PM GMT

What a sad sad sad day when the web can't be properly used as a reference. You guys are being ridiculous. Here, use the web for which it was intended; a place to link relative information together:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=GGLD%2CGGLD%3A2005-10%2CGGLD%3Aen&q=define%3Amonadnock

Or, if you must, go down to the local library, check out a geology book and read the same damn definition, which sources the ancient indian usage of the term.

btw, you may want to note that even Google places the weighting of Wikipedia as a "last" resource

-Scott
roger47
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Posted: Mar 19, 2007 - 4:14 PM GMT

Scott,
You might find Wikipedia's discussion of wolves on Monadnock interesting, even though it is erroneous.

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