Hermitage Cash Flow Shortage

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Comments

  • marcskimarcski advanced
    edited March 24 Posts: 253
    Are you seriously making a comparison between the Yellowstone Club and Haystack?

    I'd rather ski Magic anyday over the Stack and have no fear of my kids skiing solo there.


  • BondmanBondman novice
    Posts: 18
    Montana is alot like Vermont. No? (except Montana went for Trump) For the purpose of responding to your remark, yes. Let me guess, you don't like Haystack but you like Magic, you must be a super duper skier. Oh Boy.   

    What does skiing Magic have anything to do with this thread?  Unless they are looking for a 30 year old triple to go with the Black lift.
  • marcskimarcski advanced
    edited March 24 Posts: 253
    You are the one who made a comment about there being no outstanding mountains in S. Vt. I responded in kind.
  • joshua_segaljoshua_segal expert
    Posts: 2,141
    Amplifying on Bondman's statement: The Hermitage is selling a lifestyle for an elite element of society that can afford it. Skiing is one of their amenities.  I doubt that any of them think they are at the best skiing mountain in the east and most of them don't care.
  • BaldhillBaldhill novice
    Posts: 3
    Jim Barnes generated a lot of excitement providing a club experience focused on service and no lift lines. Always questioned the sustainability of the business model based on club memberships. Part of the model did include the build out of the hotel Hermitage that was long delayed due to permitting issues under ACT 250. Barnes was no Boy Scout when it came to waiting for the State to approve permits, moreover he got himself and the projects jammed up. Who know how thing may have worked out if the Barnes vision was able to move forward. The hotels may have provided the Hermitage with a much needed line of revenue as well as putting skiers on the mountain. Remeber based on the Mount Snow's sale of Haystack, any owner was prohibited from selling lift ticket's directly to the public with the exception of a small number of ticket sales to local residents.
  • marcskimarcski advanced
    edited March 25 Posts: 253
    I clearly was not the intended market for the Hermitage. I also don't play golf, but I am curious: Do golf clubs with crappy courses do well?
  • z1000307470z1000307470 advanced
    Posts: 142
    Bondman said:

    marcski said:

    The problem I saw from day 1 was that no matter the facilities that were built, you were still skiing the 'stack.

    Aparently, you don't get it. I've seen this type of proclamation from others also. There is no mountain in southern vt, that is outstanding.Haystack is very similar to Bromley.  The Yellowstone Club is not as big as Big Sky. I don't think that the members care.
    It is about skiing on great conditions at 3pm with no lines, ever. It is about a nice lunch with your family in an unhurried atmosphere. It is about sending your young kids out on the mountain without the fear of them being run over. A powder day lasts all day long. All of this is a luxury than few can afford. But if you can afford it, why would'nt you?
    Haystack wishes it had Bromley's terrain. The Yellowstone Club has 2700 vertical and 2700 acres, hardly the snoozefest that is Haystack. The YC also has a gate into Big Sky for the best of both worlds. Going straight down another blue trail at Haystack to maintain some speed to cut thru a foot of fresh powder is not something that sounds like fun.
  • lotsoskiinglotsoskiing expert
    Posts: 1,140

    Bondman said:

    marcski said:

    The problem I saw from day 1 was that no matter the facilities that were built, you were still skiing the 'stack.

    Aparently, you don't get it. I've seen this type of proclamation from others also. There is no mountain in southern vt, that is outstanding.Haystack is very similar to Bromley.  The Yellowstone Club is not as big as Big Sky. I don't think that the members care.
    It is about skiing on great conditions at 3pm with no lines, ever. It is about a nice lunch with your family in an unhurried atmosphere. It is about sending your young kids out on the mountain without the fear of them being run over. A powder day lasts all day long. All of this is a luxury than few can afford. But if you can afford it, why would'nt you?
    Haystack wishes it had Bromley's terrain. The Yellowstone Club has 2700 vertical and 2700 acres, hardly the snoozefest that is Haystack. The YC also has a gate into Big Sky for the best of both worlds. Going straight down another blue trail at Haystack to maintain some speed to cut thru a foot of fresh powder is not something that sounds like fun.
    I admit I know no Hermitage members, but I am guessing that they have the means to take vacations in places with glitzier skiing options and do so, while keeping the 'Tage as their "home base" for the reasons cited (no lines, comfy surroundings, etc).
    I get it, but I just never believed it could work.
  • newmannewman advanced
    Posts: 424
    It's layout is OK for the jet set skier. A big separate novice area. Good mix of blues and easy blacks. Short steeps and trees. Decent snowmaking and the Cadillac of lifts. Its not Stowe, but it's there own. The terrain of the mountain has nothing to do with any of this.
  • DrJeffDrJeff advanced
    Posts: 383

    Bondman said:

    marcski said:

    The problem I saw from day 1 was that no matter the facilities that were built, you were still skiing the 'stack.

    Aparently, you don't get it. I've seen this type of proclamation from others also. There is no mountain in southern vt, that is outstanding.Haystack is very similar to Bromley.  The Yellowstone Club is not as big as Big Sky. I don't think that the members care.
    It is about skiing on great conditions at 3pm with no lines, ever. It is about a nice lunch with your family in an unhurried atmosphere. It is about sending your young kids out on the mountain without the fear of them being run over. A powder day lasts all day long. All of this is a luxury than few can afford. But if you can afford it, why would'nt you?
    Haystack wishes it had Bromley's terrain. The Yellowstone Club has 2700 vertical and 2700 acres, hardly the snoozefest that is Haystack. The YC also has a gate into Big Sky for the best of both worlds. Going straight down another blue trail at Haystack to maintain some speed to cut thru a foot of fresh powder is not something that sounds like fun.
    I admit I know no Hermitage members, but I am guessing that they have the means to take vacations in places with glitzier skiing options and do so, while keeping the 'Tage as their "home base" for the reasons cited (no lines, comfy surroundings, etc).
    I get it, but I just never believed it could work.
    A good amount of the Hermitage Members are families, who have kids in various lesson and/or race programs, who are up at their mountain most every weekend they're open.  The reality is they're not all that different than families who have chosen their home mountain, may have bought a second home and/or do a seasonal rental at their mountain of choice, and have their kids in mountain programs and have a social network at their home mountain of other like minded families.

    Many people who think that in general Hermitage Club members are one thing, may very well be shocked to find out if they got to know them, and see how the club has been functioning in terms of families skiing together and lots of kids in various mountain programs, that they have way more in common with them than not in common
  • lotsoskiinglotsoskiing expert
    Posts: 1,140
    DrJeff said:

    Bondman said:

    marcski said:

    The problem I saw from day 1 was that no matter the facilities that were built, you were still skiing the 'stack.

    Aparently, you don't get it. I've seen this type of proclamation from others also. There is no mountain in southern vt, that is outstanding.Haystack is very similar to Bromley.  The Yellowstone Club is not as big as Big Sky. I don't think that the members care.
    It is about skiing on great conditions at 3pm with no lines, ever. It is about a nice lunch with your family in an unhurried atmosphere. It is about sending your young kids out on the mountain without the fear of them being run over. A powder day lasts all day long. All of this is a luxury than few can afford. But if you can afford it, why would'nt you?
    Haystack wishes it had Bromley's terrain. The Yellowstone Club has 2700 vertical and 2700 acres, hardly the snoozefest that is Haystack. The YC also has a gate into Big Sky for the best of both worlds. Going straight down another blue trail at Haystack to maintain some speed to cut thru a foot of fresh powder is not something that sounds like fun.
    I admit I know no Hermitage members, but I am guessing that they have the means to take vacations in places with glitzier skiing options and do so, while keeping the 'Tage as their "home base" for the reasons cited (no lines, comfy surroundings, etc).
    I get it, but I just never believed it could work.
    A good amount of the Hermitage Members are families, who have kids in various lesson and/or race programs, who are up at their mountain most every weekend they're open.  The reality is they're not all that different than families who have chosen their home mountain, may have bought a second home and/or do a seasonal rental at their mountain of choice, and have their kids in mountain programs and have a social network at their home mountain of other like minded families.

    Many people who think that in general Hermitage Club members are one thing, may very well be shocked to find out if they got to know them, and see how the club has been functioning in terms of families skiing together and lots of kids in various mountain programs, that they have way more in common with them than not in common
    I thought that was what I meant...was not passing judgement. 
  • nospeed411nospeed411 novice
    Posts: 9
    As a Bromley local and Magic local can we please stop the insults of comparing "The Hermifail Club " to us.....thanks but we are still open and have a butt load more heritage than that overpriced poor excuse for a ski resort.  For one I hope it tanks and the lifts get sold off at firesale prices. Theres plenty of legitimate small hills that could use them up here ....hey Ascutney you might want to start bidding now  LOL  
  • newmannewman advanced
    Posts: 424
    Theres plenty of legitimate small hills that could use them up here ....hey Ascutney you might want to start bidding now  LOL  

    I didn't know they were selling rope tows.
  • BondmanBondman novice
    Posts: 18

    Bondman said:

    marcski said:

    The problem I saw from day 1 was that no matter the facilities that were built, you were still skiing the 'stack.

    Aparently, you don't get it. I've seen this type of proclamation from others also. There is no mountain in southern vt, that is outstanding.Haystack is very similar to Bromley.  The Yellowstone Club is not as big as Big Sky. I don't think that the members care.
    It is about skiing on great conditions at 3pm with no lines, ever. It is about a nice lunch with your family in an unhurried atmosphere. It is about sending your young kids out on the mountain without the fear of them being run over. A powder day lasts all day long. All of this is a luxury than few can afford. But if you can afford it, why would'nt you?
    Haystack wishes it had Bromley's terrain. The Yellowstone Club has 2700 vertical and 2700 acres, hardly the snoozefest that is Haystack. The YC also has a gate into Big Sky for the best of both worlds. Going straight down another blue trail at Haystack to maintain some speed to cut thru a foot of fresh powder is not something that sounds like fun.
    I know both mountains extremely well. I think that they are very comparable. In fact, One might argue that Haystack has better black terrain.
  • marcskimarcski advanced
    edited March 26 Posts: 253
    Bondman said:


    I know both mountains extremely well. I think that they are very comparable. In fact, One might argue that Haystack has better black terrain.

    Everyone has the right to their opinion, but now, you're just losing legitimacy.
  • BondmanBondman novice
    Posts: 18
    Oh no.
  • HarveyHarvey intermediate
    edited March 26 Posts: 23
    Bondman said:

    It is about skiing on great conditions at 3pm with no lines, ever. It is about a nice lunch with your family in an unhurried atmosphere. It is about sending your young kids out on the mountain without the fear of them being run over. A powder day lasts all day long. All of this is a luxury than few can afford. But if you can afford it, why would'nt you?

    Sounds a bit like Plattekill or Magic. I can afford it! :)
  • lotsoskiinglotsoskiing expert
    Posts: 1,140
    Harvey said:

    Bondman said:

    It is about skiing on great conditions at 3pm with no lines, ever. It is about a nice lunch with your family in an unhurried atmosphere. It is about sending your young kids out on the mountain without the fear of them being run over. A powder day lasts all day long. All of this is a luxury than few can afford. But if you can afford it, why would'nt you?

    Sounds a bit like Plattekill or Magic. I can afford it! :)
    Or Middlebury, or Hickory (RIP), or MRG (except on holiday week), or NE Slopes
  • rickbolgerrickbolger expert
    Posts: 1,325
    Interesting discussion!   Never having skied Haystack, I don't have a dog in this hunt. 

    Still, I'm puzzled at the animosity for Haystack, or any mountain for that matter...different strokes for different folks, you know?   I can say that the folks I've known who did ski Haystack, all said they liked it.  I hope it does come back somehow.  

    As ol' Warren said, "the best place to ski in the world is where you're skiing that day."   

  • mtsnow123mtsnow123 advanced
    Posts: 425



    As ol' Warren said, "the best place to ski in the world is where you're skiing that day."   
    Amen
  • BondmanBondman novice
    Posts: 18

    Harvey said:

    Bondman said:

    It is about skiing on great conditions at 3pm with no lines, ever. It is about a nice lunch with your family in an unhurried atmosphere. It is about sending your young kids out on the mountain without the fear of them being run over. A powder day lasts all day long. All of this is a luxury than few can afford. But if you can afford it, why would'nt you?

    Sounds a bit like Plattekill or Magic. I can afford it! :)
    Or Middlebury, or Hickory (RIP), or MRG (except on holiday week), or NE Slopes
    Yeah, the only difference is that the Hermatage club has phenominal snowmaking . lol
  • HarveyHarvey intermediate
    Posts: 23
    Bondman said:


    Yeah, the only difference is that the Hermatage club has phenominal snowmaking . lol

    Don't you need to be solvent to blow snow?
  • BondmanBondman novice
    Posts: 18


    Harvey said:

    Bondman said:


    Yeah, the only difference is that the Hermatage club has phenominal snowmaking . lol

    Don't you need to be solvent to blow snow?
    Are you stupid or trying to be funny?
  • ciscokidciscokid expert
    Posts: 2,248
    Ski_it I'm starting to understand your train of thought.⛷⛷

    Hey I slept in the back of dads new '78 pickup in a down sleeping bag in Haystack's parking lot for free. The snow plow trucks didn't even stop to question us.

    We ended up skiing Sneaux that morning of Christmas week '78
  • HarveyHarvey intermediate
    Posts: 23
    Bondman said:

    Are you stupid or trying to be funny?

    I don't know much about Hermitage and, confession time, had not read the thread. My comment was based only on the thread title.

    So I just read the whole thread. It does seem like paying for snowmaking could be a problem based on the signs that they are tapped out.  Did they blow a ton this season?
  • marcskimarcski advanced
    Posts: 253
    Bondman said:


    Harvey said:

    Bondman said:


    Yeah, the only difference is that the Hermatage club has phenominal snowmaking . lol

    Don't you need to be solvent to blow snow?
    Are you stupid or trying to be funny?
    Curious as to why you take people's skiing (non)preferences so personally? Also, most people's comments in the thread have been limited to skiing....not making personal attacks.

    Personally, I prefer skiing on a greater percentage of natural snow trails...even if that means I have far fewer trails to choose from. Hence, my personal preference for old school style resorts, such as Platty, Magic and MRG, etc.
  • DrJeffDrJeff advanced
    Posts: 383
    Harvey said:

    Bondman said:

    Are you stupid or trying to be funny?

    I don't know much about Hermitage and, confession time, had not read the thread. My comment was based only on the thread title.

    So I just read the whole thread. It does seem like paying for snowmaking could be a problem based on the signs that they are tapped out.  Did they blow a ton this season?
    They've got the water supply and a pretty modern fleet of tower and sled mounted Techno Alpin fan guns of various sizes as well as a slew of HKD Impluse air/water guns.  They don't have the largest air plant and/or water pumping ability (especially these days compared to what Mount Snow up the street can do)..

    When I was there this season Early February for a race my kids had, they were just about done getting all of their snowmaking terrain open, and from what I could see and ski on, their base depths were good
  • HarveyHarvey intermediate
    Posts: 23
    Sounds like the infrastructure is there, just maybe not the business model.

    Bondman are you connected to Hermitage in some way? Sorry if I missed it.
  • rickbolgerrickbolger expert
    Posts: 1,325
    Harvey said:

    Sounds like the infrastructure is there, just maybe not the business model.




    I think that's correct, but also as Joshua S. pointed out, they legally weren't permitted to turn to public ticket sales to help defray costs.

    As far as the business model, I think they went over-the-top. Started with the gatehouse -- good grief. Also think they could've made the lodge work for their purposes. They spent money with reckless abandon, which tends to be a bad business model. ;)

  • lotsoskiinglotsoskiing expert
    Posts: 1,140

    Harvey said:

    Sounds like the infrastructure is there, just maybe not the business model.




    I think that's correct, but also as Joshua S. pointed out, they legally weren't permitted to turn to public ticket sales to help defray costs.

    As far as the business model, I think they went over-the-top. Started with the gatehouse -- good grief. Also think they could've made the lodge work for their purposes. They spent money with reckless abandon, which tends to be a bad business model. ;)
    +1
    With no way to generate revenue aside from memberships, it is pretty tough to cover the expenses they incur.

    Just tossing it out there: Summer revenue from weddings makes bank.  Likely not allowed in the club structure, but I imagine the base lodge would make for a nice reception area. Use lift to have summit ceremonies. I know Oak Mt. in NY covers a ton (if not all) of their snowmaking budget that way, and brings people to the area. Apples and oranges, I imagine, but just a thought.
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