Mt. Snow EB-5

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EB-5 solution sought at Mount snow

Posted Monday, September 11, 2017 9:12 pm

By Mike Faher, Special to the Reformer

DOVER — Mount Snow administrators have asked the
federal government to "expedite" approval of an independent EB-5
regional center in Vermont so they can solicit more foreign investment before
year's end.



That news came Thursday as Peak Resorts, Mount Snow's Missouri-based parent
company, reported its latest financial results.



Analysts asked the company several questions about the troubled EB-5 investment
program. In response, Mount Snow leaders said they are working hard to separate
the Dover resort's expansion plans from Vermont's EB-5 center, which federal
officials have threatened to close.



"Going forward, we don't believe that [the state] is going to have a major
impact on our ability to raise funds, because we'll be raising those funds out
of our own regional center," said Tim Boyd, Peak's president and CEO.
"We will not be raising them through the state of Vermont's regional
center."



The federal EB-5 program, which offers visas and permanent U.S. residency to
foreigners who invest in job-creating projects, has been driving growth at
Mount Snow.



The resort raised $52 million in its first EB-5 offering. After a prolonged
federal approval process that caused financial stress at Mount Snow and Peak,
the companies gained access to that money in December and quickly put it to
use.



Mount Snow administrators in June broke ground for their new, EB-5-funded
Carinthia Lodge, which is expected to be ready for the 2018-19 ski season.



Foreign investment also is paying for the 120-million-gallon West Lake
snowmaking expansion at Mount Snow. During Thursday's earnings report, Boyd
touted that project several times and said it is "ahead of schedule and
nearly complete."



"We expect to have it fully filled by early November, when we'll begin to start
making snow," he said. "The long-term benefit that will be realized
here will be our ability to open more terrain quicker, (and) that will result
in more skier visits (in the) early season for us."



Mount Snow is eyeing a major housing expansion for its next EB-5 project - the
creation of 102 luxury condominium units with "ski-in, ski-out"
access.



But the EB-5 program, coordinated in Vermont through a state-operated regional
center, has come under intense scrutiny due to allegations of large-scale fraud
at Jay Peak Resort.



Citing the Jay Peak scandal, U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services last
month announced plans to close the state's EB-5 regional center. State
officials vowed to appeal that decision, arguing that the center should be
phased out slowly rather than shut immediately.



Mount Snow administrators hadn't commented on that development until Thursday,
when Boyd brushed aside concerns about any fallout for the resort's expansion
projects.



"From our perspective, the problems that the state of Vermont has had are
all centered around the Jay Peak project," Boyd said. "That part of
it hasn't had any real effect on us." Mount Snow previously has signaled
its intent to establish its own EB-5 regional center in order to continue
pursuing foreign investment. But Boyd disclosed that the company asked
Citizenship and Immigration Services to approve a new regional center in
December, months before that news was made public.



"It was always our plan, once the state started having problems with the
Jay Peak issue, to move out of that regional center and move into one of our
own so that we aren't associated with that state organization," he said.



The question is whether federal officials will approve Mount Snow's EB-5 center
and, if so, how soon. Boyd said the company is awaiting "final
approval" but also said administrators have tried to nudge the federal
government into action.



"We actually recently have made a request to have that expedited, so we
can get that approved so that we can use that for our next offering coming
up," Boyd said.



Citizenship and Immigration Services officials said they were unable to provide
information about any application from Mount Snow or Peak Resorts.



A USCIS spokeswoman said the agency currently is considering regional center
applications submitted on or before December 25, 2015 — a full year,
apparently, before Mount Snow's application was submitted.



Boyd sounded optimistic that a favorable decision is forthcoming. "We
expect to be able to get out our next (EB-5) offering sometime before the end
of the year," he said. EB-5 issues aside, Peak leaders also said they were
optimistic about the upcoming ski season at their 14 resorts. The company has
said sales of its "Peak Pass," which offers access to seven resorts
including Mount Snow, are up about 9 percent over last year.



Boyd said he's not worried about the recent expansions of Vail Resorts, which
earlier this year acquired Stowe Mountain Resort, and KSL Capital Partners,
which now controls Stratton Mountain Resort.



"Their presence in our markets is still very limited," Boyd said.
"We don't anticipate at this point in time that they're going to have much
impact."



Mike Faher writes for VTDigger, the Brattleboro Reformer and The Commons. He
can be contacted at mfaher@vtdigger.org.

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Comments

  • obienickobienick expert
    Posts: 938
    One thing I've never quite understood. EB-5 is about job creation. How can it be possible to use EB-5 funds on things like new base lodges and snowmaking improvements?
  • slathamslatham advanced
    Posts: 152
    obienick said:

    One thing I've never quite understood. EB-5 is about job creation. How can it be possible to use EB-5 funds on things like new base lodges and snowmaking improvements?



    First, I believe there is also EB-5 funding available for job retention.

    As for base lodge, its part of the broader base redevelopment that will include housing and full time employees around that, not to mention the added customer visitors to Mt Snow. Also, if the lodge itself is bigger, say with a larger cafeteria, you need more staff, etc...

    Same for snowmaking. You might need more snowmakers, and groomers to groom it out. More trails open means more lifts, so more lifties. And of course more snowmaking means more customers which means more staff in general.

    It adds up, and the EB-5 requirements are not huge regarding the number of jobs required, though I can't recall what they are. 


  • NELSBEERNELSBEER advanced
    Posts: 259
    Snowmakers, groomers on the hill. If weather cooperates an earlier & busier season is feasible... adding Thanksgiving to peak Xmas, MLK & winter vacations could employ a lot of people for a much longer time. Holding out a carrot like 25-30 trails open at the Boston Ski show, with live cams and video to back it up would get a lot of kids on their parents cases & all us diehard skiers out for an early and longer season. A lot of restaurants/lodging take a tween season hiatus as well. A direct move/overlap from leaf viewing and mountain biking might allow them to stay open. This preserves staff as well, a good thing as the labor market tightens up.

    As Mount Snow expands its owned base of condos (all the new ones built will be company owned for at least 10 years) there will be increased pressure to provide entertainment/services to keep them rented. Who knows what direction this will move in: Water Parks, Spring/Summer skiing, horseback riding, white water rafting, guided bike tours (mountain or road), Ice/Tiki/umbrella Bars. All involve wore staff...
  • DrJeffDrJeff advanced
    Posts: 297
    One has to remember that it's not just jobs created at Mount Snow proper, but jobs created (or retained) within the general area. So if a new restaurant opens as a result of more people coming to the region, those jobs from that restaurant count.  If more people decide to buy properties in the area and want to renovate post purchase and contractors need to hire more workers, those jobs count into the job creation equation that EB-5 uses.  

    Do I believe that all the jobs the EB-5 money is supposed to create or retain will actually happen?  Nope.  Am I, as a Mount Snow regular and property owner in the area THRILLED that this is all happening to my home hill and the surrounding region? 100% yes! 
    :D
  • mtsnow123mtsnow123 advanced
    Posts: 326
    DrJeff said:

    One has to remember that it's not just jobs created at Mount Snow proper, but jobs created (or retained) within the general area. So if a new restaurant opens as a result of more people coming to the region, those jobs from that restaurant count.  If more people decide to buy properties in the area and want to renovate post purchase and contractors need to hire more workers, those jobs count into the job creation equation that EB-5 uses.  


    Do I believe that all the jobs the EB-5 money is supposed to create or retain will actually happen?  Nope.  Am I, as a Mount Snow regular and property owner in the area THRILLED that this is all happening to my home hill and the surrounding region? 100% yes! 
    :D
    Great point! I'm assuming there will be quite the leakage from the advancements done at Haystack (Hermitage). That's if the numbers are measured in the Deerfield Valley in general.
  • DrJeffDrJeff advanced
    Posts: 297
    mtsnow123 said:

    DrJeff said:

    One has to remember that it's not just jobs created at Mount Snow proper, but jobs created (or retained) within the general area. So if a new restaurant opens as a result of more people coming to the region, those jobs from that restaurant count.  If more people decide to buy properties in the area and want to renovate post purchase and contractors need to hire more workers, those jobs count into the job creation equation that EB-5 uses.  


    Do I believe that all the jobs the EB-5 money is supposed to create or retain will actually happen?  Nope.  Am I, as a Mount Snow regular and property owner in the area THRILLED that this is all happening to my home hill and the surrounding region? 100% yes! 
    :D
    Great point! I'm assuming there will be quite the leakage from the advancements done at Haystack (Hermitage). That's if the numbers are measured in the Deerfield Valley in general.
    The other thing as well, if I recall from the original EB-5 explanation that the Mount Snow folks gave a few years ago, is that the area over which this job growth and/or retention will be looked at is the majority of both Windham and Bennington counties, since they are deemed in the eyes of the federal gov't as "economically depressed" and as such are looked favorably upon by the gov't apparently for projects that will hopefully lead to job growth.  This situation become even more dire in the eyes of the administrators of the EB-5 program with the closing of the VT Yankee Nuclear Plant which took away a number of good paying jobs from the Windham County tax rolls....
  • mtsnow123mtsnow123 advanced
    Posts: 326
    DrJeff said:

    mtsnow123 said:

    DrJeff said:

    One has to remember that it's not just jobs created at Mount Snow proper, but jobs created (or retained) within the general area. So if a new restaurant opens as a result of more people coming to the region, those jobs from that restaurant count.  If more people decide to buy properties in the area and want to renovate post purchase and contractors need to hire more workers, those jobs count into the job creation equation that EB-5 uses.  


    Do I believe that all the jobs the EB-5 money is supposed to create or retain will actually happen?  Nope.  Am I, as a Mount Snow regular and property owner in the area THRILLED that this is all happening to my home hill and the surrounding region? 100% yes! 
    :D
    Great point! I'm assuming there will be quite the leakage from the advancements done at Haystack (Hermitage). That's if the numbers are measured in the Deerfield Valley in general.
    The other thing as well, if I recall from the original EB-5 explanation that the Mount Snow folks gave a few years ago, is that the area over which this job growth and/or retention will be looked at is the majority of both Windham and Bennington counties, since they are deemed in the eyes of the federal gov't as "economically depressed" and as such are looked favorably upon by the gov't apparently for projects that will hopefully lead to job growth.  This situation become even more dire in the eyes of the administrators of the EB-5 program with the closing of the VT Yankee Nuclear Plant which took away a number of good paying jobs from the Windham County tax rolls....
    Hmmm, build a biomass power plant in the Deerfield Valley to create jobs and local energy. I can only imagine the impact of the taxes that Entergy spilled into the county. 
  • sugarloafsugarloaf expert
    Posts: 768
    Does anyone know if there will be complete access to Carinthia this winter? I ask because I was there yesterday viewing fall foliage and access was blocked due to construction of the new baselodge.

    Ski Conditions Report: A detailed report describing the snow conditions on the mountain the day of your visit. Skiers should become familiar with the following snow surface descriptions: Ice: Packed Powder, Slush: Packed Powder, Frozen Granular: Packed Powder , Packed Powder - A thin covering of snow over bare earth.

  • DrJeffDrJeff advanced
    Posts: 297
    sugarloaf said:

    As I have heard it explained, Carinthia base area is basically off limits to the general public currently, so that they can get as much done as possible ahead of the winter season. Come the winter season, there will be "normal" access to that base area, with some loss of parking spaces apparently due to the construction work around the new lodge. 

    sugarloaf said:

    The old lodge will be operating as usual for this season, and then taken down over the summer for when the new lodge is operational ahead of the '18-'19 season

    sugarloaf said:


    sugarloaf said:

    Does anyone know if there will be complete access to Carinthia this winter? I ask because I was there yesterday viewing fall foliage and access was blocked due to construction of the new baselodge.


  • NELSBEERNELSBEER advanced
    Posts: 259
    The push is on now to get the new lodge enclosed before winter and the ski season. They hope to be able to work on interiors throughout the winter. The complete closure of the Carinthia complex over the summer was to accommodate the snowmaking changes,  the new lodge effort and general earth moving/grading . There was a lot of traffic involving big vehicles that could do bad things to little cars and people. 

    The snowmaking changes and grading should be wrapping up as the season starts & new base lodge traffic should be more moderate.
     
  • TomWhiteTomWhite advanced
    Posts: 476

    ropeways.net | Home | 2017-10-06

    Mount Snow Snowmaking, Trail, and Lodge Construction Continues

    The long awaited EB-5 projects are taking shape.

    With escrowed EB-5 funds finally in hand, capital improvement projects are ramping up at Mount Snow.

    Under the EB-5 program in Vermont, a foreigner can invest $500,000 in an approved United States business (which must then create or preserve 10 jobs per investor), in exchange for a green card. Upon nearing its $52 million EB-5 investment goal, Mount Snow's owner, Peak Resorts, fronted $12 million to start the construction of its West Lake project in 2015. While the company was expecting to have the $52 million in EB-5 funds released by early 2016, the alleged Jay Peak EB-5 Ponzi scheme reportedly contributed to significant delays in government processing. As the delays continued, Peak Resorts found itself in a dire cashflow situation, resulting in layoffs and a bridge loan. The escrow restrictions were finally removed in late 2016 when the United States Citizenship and Immigration Services approved the project's I-526.

    With the bureaucratic hurdles behind it, Mount Snow has completed a significant portion of the planned construction. The new West Lake reservoir continues to fill, while the new pumphouses are taking shape. The $30 million snowmaking project is expected to provide a 600% improvement over Mount Snow's previous 20 million gallon snowmaking water storage. 33,500 feet of snowmaking pipe is expected to be installed on the mountain in time for the 2017-18 season.


    In addition, HKD announced that it is shipping 200 new Impulse R5 snowguns to Mount Snow.

    Meanwhile, 1,600 feet of the novice Long John trail is being blasted, to widen the trail by 35 feet.

    2018-19's big project is also under way, as a 38,000 square foot lodge is being constructed at Carinthia. The EB-5 funded project will feature seating, dining, ski rentals, and retail. The small base lodge to be replaced dates back to when Carinthia opened as a private club ski area in the 1960s.

    Source: "NewEnglandSkiIndustry.com"

    image

    http://www.newenglandskiindustry.com
  • NELSBEERNELSBEER advanced
    edited October 6 Posts: 259
    They are also planning on starting the EB-5 process for Phase 2 of Carinthia by year end. This would be the first residential building, about 150 units, not for sale but available as rentable lodging. This may be going through Peak's own EB-5 center rather than the Vermont State one (reportedly it is shutting down).

    Allow a year or 2 for paperwork & enlisting EB-5 participants before anything starts to move on Phase 2.

    Looking at the long term plans below this is a bootstrap rebuild of the entire base area from the ground up. It will be interesting to see if they can tie a fairly large area into an attractive cohesive whole. Fingers crossed for less reliance on Mooover buses for getting around. 

    Future Projects

    Cam4_003-smallerThe Carinthia 1 LP Project is the first of multiple EB-5 projects at Mount Snow. Once the Carinthia phase 1 is complete, Mount Snow will begin Phase 2 of the Carinthia Development.

    Mount Snow’s master plan, approved by the state of Vermont, includes the development of up to 900 residential units and 200,000 square feet of commercial space.  The first future project will be the development of up to 150 residential units at the Carinthia Base Area.  These units will be luxury mostly two- and three-bedroom units at the base of Carinthia, with the Carinthia Ski Lodge as the hub of activity.  Amenities for these residential units will include an outdoor swimming pool, hot tubs, an ice skating rink and indoor exercise facility.

    Cam5_003-smallerFollowing the development at Carinthia, projects will take place in the Main Base Area of Mount Snow and the Sundance/Snow Lake Area of Mount Snow.  The Main Base Area includes up to 200 residential units and several skier service buildings; the Sundance/Snow Lake area includes approximately 500 residential units.  All units are ski in/ski out units.  For more information on future offerings, please contact us.

    The Mount Snow master plan has been approved by several government agencies.  The United States Department of Agriculture Forest Service accepted Mount Snow’s master plan in 2010.  The State of Vermont Agency of Natural Resources, which conducts  a rigorous and thorough review before issuing permits, approved Mount Snow’s master plan in 2011.

     

    S-01_small

  • newpylongnewpylong expert
    edited October 7 Posts: 564
    Not to go too far off track but I believe in the long term master plan the Sundance lodge goes away per this rendering does it not? Tumbleweed and Seasons chairs also go away with a new Quad replacing, starting down where the lower lot is?

    Sundance is always where I start when I go to Snow, but I guess with an essentially new base area at Carinthia and new Main base facilities it does not make sense to retain 3 base lodges.

    If the new lift follows the same lift line as Tumbleweed (roughly) maybe it would make sense to replace Sundance triple after that, starting up higher directly across from the top Tumbleweed terminal. By that time all those trails off the Sundance trail should have snowmaking and be open more. I think you make both lifts fixed grip carpet loader quads. Or is that be overkill since Long John will be widened and it will be easier to actually get to the Sundance pod without Sundance running? What say ye Dr. Jeff?
  • sugarloafsugarloaf expert
    Posts: 768
    DrJeff said:

    sugarloaf said:

    As I have heard it explained, Carinthia base area is basically off limits to the general public currently, so that they can get as much done as possible ahead of the winter season. Come the winter season, there will be "normal" access to that base area, with some loss of parking spaces apparently due to the construction work around the new lodge. 

    sugarloaf said:

    The old lodge will be operating as usual for this season, and then taken down over the summer for when the new lodge is operational ahead of the '18-'19 season

    sugarloaf said:


    sugarloaf said:

    Does anyone know if there will be complete access to Carinthia this winter? I ask because I was there yesterday viewing fall foliage and access was blocked due to construction of the new baselodge.


    The loss of parking spots at Carinthia is fairly large with only a few handicapped spots available in front of the old lodge. I'm concerned these will be taken early in the day and a far walk for me is not possible. I haven't bought my pass yet and I'm hesitant at this point.

    Ski Conditions Report: A detailed report describing the snow conditions on the mountain the day of your visit. Skiers should become familiar with the following snow surface descriptions: Ice: Packed Powder, Slush: Packed Powder, Frozen Granular: Packed Powder , Packed Powder - A thin covering of snow over bare earth.

  • sugarloafsugarloaf expert
    Posts: 768
    sugarloaf said:

    DrJeff said:

    sugarloaf said:

    As I have heard it explained, Carinthia base area is basically off limits to the general public currently, so that they can get as much done as possible ahead of the winter season. Come the winter season, there will be "normal" access to that base area, with some loss of parking spaces apparently due to the construction work around the new lodge. 

    sugarloaf said:

    The old lodge will be operating as usual for this season, and then taken down over the summer for when the new lodge is operational ahead of the '18-'19 season

    sugarloaf said:


    sugarloaf said:

    Does anyone know if there will be complete access to Carinthia this winter? I ask because I was there yesterday viewing fall foliage and access was blocked due to construction of the new baselodge.


    I was back up to Mt Snow today and the loss of parking spots at Carinthia is fairly large with only a few handicapped spots available in front of the old lodge. I'm concerned these will be taken early in the day and a far walk for me is not possible. I haven't bought my pass yet and I'm hesitant at this point.

    Ski Conditions Report: A detailed report describing the snow conditions on the mountain the day of your visit. Skiers should become familiar with the following snow surface descriptions: Ice: Packed Powder, Slush: Packed Powder, Frozen Granular: Packed Powder , Packed Powder - A thin covering of snow over bare earth.

  • DrJeffDrJeff advanced
    Posts: 297
    I look at it this way, about that part of what was initially presented as a 30yr Master Plan.... Phase 3? 4? whatever # the Sundance base area part would be is definitely subject to potential change.... As I recall, the main base area redevelopment had the current mtn ops building area being turned into new condos and the then new mtn ops building moving over to the current Sundance base area with that lodge coming down... Also I think I remember that the tubing hill would be moved over to the current Sundance Base Area in the 30yr master plan.

    Lift wise, I've always felt that using the current Sundance Liftline as a template, install a high speed quad in the same essential length and orientation as the Sundance triple is now would be a game changer, both keeping beginners lapping Long John/Deer run as well as people lapping the general South Bowl, Cut off, Hop, Ridge, Uncle's, Cut off area off of the main base area lifts. Especially once the snowmaking coverage expands to the planned 100%...

    All it needs now is a bunch more EB-5 $$, some good, profitable seasons, and the VT State Gov't not going crazy with permitting issues!!!
    newpylong said:

    Not to go too far off track but I believe in the long term master plan the Sundance lodge goes away per this rendering does it not? Tumbleweed and Seasons chairs also go away with a new Quad replacing, starting down where the lower lot is?


    Sundance is always where I start when I go to Snow, but I guess with an essentially new base area at Carinthia and new Main base facilities it does not make sense to retain 3 base lodges.

    If the new lift follows the same lift line as Tumbleweed (roughly) maybe it would make sense to replace Sundance triple after that, starting up higher directly across from the top Tumbleweed terminal. By that time all those trails off the Sundance trail should have snowmaking and be open more. I think you make both lifts fixed grip carpet loader quads. Or is that be overkill since Long John will be widened and it will be easier to actually get to the Sundance pod without Sundance running? What say ye Dr. Jeff?
  • DrJeffDrJeff advanced
    Posts: 297
    Guessing that handicap spots will be re-established in a similar volume and location as they were last season before opening day... The last thing I'm guessing the mountain wants is a potential legal issue with a violation (perceived or real) with the ADA!!
    sugarloaf said:

    DrJeff said:

    sugarloaf said:

    As I have heard it explained, Carinthia base area is basically off limits to the general public currently, so that they can get as much done as possible ahead of the winter season. Come the winter season, there will be "normal" access to that base area, with some loss of parking spaces apparently due to the construction work around the new lodge. 

    sugarloaf said:

    The old lodge will be operating as usual for this season, and then taken down over the summer for when the new lodge is operational ahead of the '18-'19 season

    sugarloaf said:


    sugarloaf said:

    Does anyone know if there will be complete access to Carinthia this winter? I ask because I was there yesterday viewing fall foliage and access was blocked due to construction of the new baselodge.


    The loss of parking spots at Carinthia is fairly large with only a few handicapped spots available in front of the old lodge. I'm concerned these will be taken early in the day and a far walk for me is not possible. I haven't bought my pass yet and I'm hesitant at this point.
  • sugarloafsugarloaf expert
    Posts: 768
    DrJeff said:

    Guessing that handicap spots will be re-established in a similar volume and location as they were last season before opening day... The last thing I'm guessing the mountain wants is a potential legal issue with a violation (perceived or real) with the ADA!!

    sugarloaf said:

    DrJeff said:

    sugarloaf said:

    As I have heard it explained, Carinthia base area is basically off limits to the general public currently, so that they can get as much done as possible ahead of the winter season. Come the winter season, there will be "normal" access to that base area, with some loss of parking spaces apparently due to the construction work around the new lodge. 

    sugarloaf said:

    The old lodge will be operating as usual for this season, and then taken down over the summer for when the new lodge is operational ahead of the '18-'19 season

    sugarloaf said:


    sugarloaf said:

    Does anyone know if there will be complete access to Carinthia this winter? I ask because I was there yesterday viewing fall foliage and access was blocked due to construction of the new baselodge.


    The loss of parking spots at Carinthia is fairly large with only a few handicapped spots available in front of the old lodge. I'm concerned these will be taken early in the day and a far walk for me is not possible. I haven't bought my pass yet and I'm hesitant at this point.
    The same number of handicapped spots are available (5 if I remember correctly) but the close in parking to the Nitro Quad is now gone with the building of the new lodge. This doesn't leave any close options if those spots are filled, which has me concerned.

    Ski Conditions Report: A detailed report describing the snow conditions on the mountain the day of your visit. Skiers should become familiar with the following snow surface descriptions: Ice: Packed Powder, Slush: Packed Powder, Frozen Granular: Packed Powder , Packed Powder - A thin covering of snow over bare earth.

  • newpylongnewpylong expert
    Posts: 564
    If Carinthia becomes a larger base facility and thus more traffic gravitates over there, does Heavy Metal need to be replaced to help get people out of the base at some point? Granted my trips have gotten fewer and fewer the times I am there the lift is pretty much walk on with the hordes over at Nitro. I suspect it has to do more with the stigma of a double than the terrain it serves?
  • sugarloafsugarloaf expert
    Posts: 768
    newpylong said:

    If Carinthia becomes a larger base facility and thus more traffic gravitates over there, does Heavy Metal need to be replaced to help get people out of the base at some point? Granted my trips have gotten fewer and fewer the times I am there the lift is pretty much walk on with the hordes over at Nitro. I suspect it has to do more with the stigma of a double than the terrain it serves?

    It's also a reallllllly slow lift.

    Ski Conditions Report: A detailed report describing the snow conditions on the mountain the day of your visit. Skiers should become familiar with the following snow surface descriptions: Ice: Packed Powder, Slush: Packed Powder, Frozen Granular: Packed Powder , Packed Powder - A thin covering of snow over bare earth.

  • slathamslatham advanced
    Posts: 152
    I don't think they need or will need the lift capacity of Sundance being a HSQ. Too many people up top already with effectively a HS"10".
  • NELSBEERNELSBEER advanced
    edited October 8 Posts: 259
    I was in the Carinthia Parking lot a few weeks back and the lot behind the old lodge looked basically intact, since there is no building going on there until the old lodge comes down (next summer) the parking in proximity to the lodge should still be available this season.

    The following year, with the new lodge completed, the parking should move to the new configuration which includes parking adjacent to the new lodge. Based on some of the published pictures the new housing units include dedicated parking. You might give them a call and ask about your concerns. 

    image
    I do wonder if there is an opportunity for added parking where the lower part of snow lake is currently located. Reduction of the lakes and return to 'natural' stream bed is part of the master plan. A big 'ski to' lot with some means of moving people to base lodges e.g. a carpet or rail might make the whole arrival/exit experience better.  
  • newpylongnewpylong expert
    Posts: 564
    slatham said:

    I don't think they need or will need the lift capacity of Sundance being a HSQ. Too many people up top already with effectively a HS"10".

    I also see a HSQ a very poor replacement for Sundance. Way too much uphill traffic especially with both summit lifts puking people out not far uphill from there.

    They will have some options for re-use once the Sunbrook Quad is replaced - that lift is 4400ft/900vert. 

    It could replace one of the North Face triples (though I would advocate against this - I think both triples there are perfect for traffic and terrain, though perhaps ongoing maintenance costs come into play), Heavy Metal, or Tumbleweed.

    They could replace Tumbleweed with the old Sunbrook Quad and put a carpet loader on the current Sundance Triple. Or replace the Tumbleweed and also replace Sundance with a new fixed grip (triple or quad?) starting up higher, across from Tumbleweed. You'll have quite a bit of terrain accessible off the Sundance chair once snowmaking is installed, if that ride could be shortened it could become similar to Stratton's Ursa - a heavily used upper mountain lift. 

    Just my .02. It surely must be exciting to see these projects moving forward for Mount Skiers and their employees alike.
  • NELSBEERNELSBEER advanced
    edited October 9 Posts: 259
    Here's a little better picture of the Carinthia development. Looks like there could be a whole row of handicap spots adjacent to the shuttle zone.   


    Peak's description in the news article below shows everything open to change. It does not mention the 500 more housing units at Sundance.  

    The overall goal is to make the base area look like a village center with a town green. “We want it to look like Vermont,” said Newton. “It’s not going to be like Stratton’s retail village, but one that may look like Newfane Center or Townshend.”

    Peak Resorts’ goal is to rebuild the main base area. The proposal includes removing all current structures, adding a new skier services building, constructing 200 residential condominium units, and expanding new terrain for ski school and beginner lessons. “We have very limited terrain for ski lessons. The new base lodge will shift back toward the North Branch of the Deerfield River and open up more terrain and streams in the area,” said Newton.

    Peak Resorts’ proposed plan will reroute Handle Road and combine the Sundance and Snow Lake areas into one neighborhood with residential units. The changes will allow additional greenspace and expansion of the tubing area. Newton said they will restore the stream that feeds Snow Lake and the lake will be rebuilt as an ornamental stormwater detention pond as part of the West Lake project, which will serve Mount Snow’s snowmaking needs.

    The Sundance area may also see significant changes. Peak Resorts proposes to tear down the Sundance lodge, move the maintenance and operations facilities to the Sundance parking lot, and extend the Tumbleweed base area, an area for novice skiers, down to the Beaver parking lot.

    Read more: Deerfield Valley News - Mount Snow rolls out new plan

    Peak has lots of places to put used triples and quads, in the mid-west on a 300-400 foot hill a beat up quad with a paint job is a miracle of modern technology. A hsq at an integrated Sundance (bubble NOT ruled out) could, with a whole new parking setup, help disperse the base crowds. If the lift doesn't hit the top could there be an opportunity for a mid-mountain watering hole (think Sunday River @ Chondola), maybe even a mid-mountain to top lift/pod (like SR's Spruce Peak) which could be opened a little earlier.  I've seen no pictures/descriptions of any upper mountain changes yet, may be some neat surprises coming.

     

  • z1000307470z1000307470 intermediate
    Posts: 97
    newpylong said:

    slatham said:

    I don't think they need or will need the lift capacity of Sundance being a HSQ. Too many people up top already with effectively a HS"10".

    I also see a HSQ a very poor replacement for Sundance. Way too much uphill traffic especially with both summit lifts puking people out not far uphill from there.

    They will have some options for re-use once the Sunbrook Quad is replaced - that lift is 4400ft/900vert. 

    It could replace one of the North Face triples (though I would advocate against this - I think both triples there are perfect for traffic and terrain, though perhaps ongoing maintenance costs come into play), Heavy Metal, or Tumbleweed.

    They could replace Tumbleweed with the old Sunbrook Quad and put a carpet loader on the current Sundance Triple. Or replace the Tumbleweed and also replace Sundance with a new fixed grip (triple or quad?) starting up higher, across from Tumbleweed. You'll have quite a bit of terrain accessible off the Sundance chair once snowmaking is installed, if that ride could be shortened it could become similar to Stratton's Ursa - a heavily used upper mountain lift. 

    Just my .02. It surely must be exciting to see these projects moving forward for Mount Skiers and their employees alike.
    The Sundance needs a high speed because of the length and the idea that it will draw people away from the main base area. Capacity can be adjusted whether it is high speed or fixed grip, so crowding at the top of the lift is a non-issue.
  • newpylongnewpylong expert
    edited October 9 Posts: 564
    It's 5K feet long (can also be shortened by 500 feet if lower terminal brought up across from Tumbleweed), which is fairly long, but no where in the realm of "needs a high speed quad" due to length. Is a 5.5 minute (HSQ) vs 8 minute (carpet loader fixed grip) ride time worth double the installation cost and increased maintenance for a non-signature lift? One that even if as high speed would not run during the week? If it was my money that would be a definite no.


  • DrJeffDrJeff advanced
    Posts: 297
    newpylong said:

    It's 5K feet long (can also be shortened by 500 feet if lower terminal brought up across from Tumbleweed), which is fairly long, but no where in the realm of "needs a high speed quad" due to length. Is a 5.5 minute (HSQ) vs 8 minute (carpet loader fixed grip) ride time worth double the installation cost and increased maintenance for a non-signature lift? One that even if as high speed would not run during the week? If it was my money that would be a definite no.



    If the master plan comes to be, and in some respect is already starting in that area of the mountain as a new townhome development basically next to the top 1/2 of the Season's Double and confined above by the sweet 16 trail is already under construction, one then needs to think more of Mount Snow as more than just it's mid to high level cash cow high volume ski area, but more of a push to make it a high end ski area with plenty of slope side high end condos. My guess is one of the selling points in the master plan for this part of the mountain will be something to the extent of "and a highspeed qua/six pack/bubble lift just steps from your door..."



  • newpylongnewpylong expert
    edited October 10 Posts: 564
    They could basically reinstall a new Sundance lift how it was pre-shortening I guess then? 1000 fpm would certainly make that feasible!
  • z1000307470z1000307470 intermediate
    Posts: 97
    newpylong said:

    It's 5K feet long (can also be shortened by 500 feet if lower terminal brought up across from Tumbleweed), which is fairly long, but no where in the realm of "needs a high speed quad" due to length. Is a 5.5 minute (HSQ) vs 8 minute (carpet loader fixed grip) ride time worth double the installation cost and increased maintenance for a non-signature lift? One that even if as high speed would not run during the week? If it was my money that would be a definite no.



    Most high speed lifts can run at 1100ft/min, if you use the common 1000 ft/min, you end up with a 5 minute ride. Carpet loaders might be able to run at your 625ft/min number, but most will run at or under 500ft/min or 10 minutes for a 5000 foot line. The biggest advantage of the carpet loader is ease of loading which reduces the number of stops vs a non-carpet loader. If you think high speed lifts are not good for 5000 foot long chairs you must think they are never useful. Also, the skiing public mostly wants high speed lifts.
  • newpylongnewpylong expert
    edited October 10 Posts: 564
    Most carpet loaders run at 550FPM via dial a speed so 9 minutes. I've been in several terminals to verify. The biggest advantage of a carpet on a fixed grip lift is the fact that you legally cannot operate at that speed without one. For a high speed lift, yes it's for ease of use.

    I also didn't say high speed lifts are "not good" for 5,000 feet, I said at that length there certainly is no requirement for one, as you claimed earlier: "The Sundance needs a high speed because of the length".  Of course the public wants a faster lift, but it really does not matter if the mountain does not want one there. In my opinion, you will never see one installed there unless it starts at the bottom like the old Sundance lift. To me that would make the most sense. 
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